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Post by Drkirby on Apr 30, 2018 11:57:47 GMT -5
I'd much rather have Ender in CF than most of the trash we've trotted out there the past few years. Cameron Maybin held his own
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 12:22:09 GMT -5
I'd much rather have Ender in CF than most of the trash we've trotted out there the past few years. Cameron Maybin held his own Maybin has a career OPS of .691, the year he was with us his OPS was .697. That's putrid for an OF. He did steal 23 bases for us, and he played decent but at times questionable defense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 13:16:48 GMT -5
I'd like to reiterate what I said on the old message bored. Ender is redundant once Acuna becomes established. Acuna is already well on his way to establishing himself. Ender has a career 95 wRC+. Why should we willingly keep that around if we don't have to? Ender's speed will slowly decline as he ages or perhaps suddenly if he becomes injured. The key is to trade Ender before his downturn begins. The Braves will need two corner outfielders in the offseason. Perhaps Ender could be traded for one. The bullpen is terrible. Ender could perhaps be traded for a combination of bullpen arm(s) and prospect(s) who will be needed since the Braves can only sign foreign players in limited quantities. Albies and Acuna should now be the top two hitters in the order. Surprisingly enough, Swanson is currently a better option at the top of the order than Ender is. I do not want this to blow up in our faces. Ender should be traded at the deadline if the Braves are out of it and can get equal value in return and if not, in the offseason. Keep Ender around at least until Pache is ready -- maybe next yr? Or the off season if Pache is ready for '19? I don't think Ender will be a Micheal Bourn -- he is pretty durable and steady with more pop then Bourn had The wRC+ does not bother me with the BA/OPB he has put up -- I really don't care about it as long as he plays the strong D and slaps the ball around and gets on
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Apr 30, 2018 15:36:55 GMT -5
I'd much rather have Ender in CF than most of the trash we've trotted out there the past few years. Cameron Maybin held his own He did... compared to what we had been trotting out there, as you stated.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 16:11:08 GMT -5
If only Maybin could have hit consistently -- there was a good athlete who supposedly had all the tools, but he never mastered hitting
He had a couple of fair offensive yrs, but he should have been a very good all around player
Other then Bourn for a brief time, what have we had out there between Andruw and Ender -- its been mostly mediocre to p - poor till now
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peteorr
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Post by peteorr on Apr 30, 2018 18:47:58 GMT -5
As others have said it is total bases that matter, not the number of hits. My position is now and was previously when I said this on the old board that Acuna can play CF. Ender's hits aren't all that valuable because he doesn't hit for power. I've never said Ender is useless. I certainly have never said, nor will I, that the Braves should get rid of Ender because he's Latin. That accusation was incredibly unfounded. I'll leave it here: if possible, I would prioritize trading Ender for a corner OF who has a 115 or higher wRC+. Ender's bat only plays because of his elite defense. Ender's defense will degrade at some point making him a bench player. The timetable for that is anyone's best guess.
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 19:32:41 GMT -5
You're consumed by sabermetrics. Those are the same numbers that tried to tell us Jason Heyward was a great player. He has never been a great player. Heyward was tremendously overvalued because of defense.....in right field, no less. By the same token, Ender Inciarte is undervalued by those same metrics because of singles. These numbers are useful, but they are flawed just like any statistics are flawed. It's no coincidence that what most seem to consider the best all-around stat for hitters is OPS......a combination of 2 "old-school" numbers. Neither Billy Beane nor the masturbator invented baseball.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Apr 30, 2018 20:27:35 GMT -5
Ender is ranked #142 right now using OPS.
Seems the old school numbers are saying he's not that great of a hitter as well.
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peteorr
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Post by peteorr on Apr 30, 2018 20:33:20 GMT -5
You're consumed by sabermetrics. Those are the same numbers that tried to tell us Jason Heyward was a great player. He has never been a great player. Heyward was tremendously overvalued because of defense.....in right field, no less. By the same token, Ender Inciarte is undervalued by those same metrics because of singles. These numbers are useful, but they are flawed just like any statistics are flawed. It's no coincidence that what most seem to consider the best all-around stat for hitters is OPS......a combination of 2 "old-school" numbers. Neither Billy Beane nor the masturbator invented baseball. I guess you've realized now that our disagreement is more based on sabermetrics than it is Inciarte. We see things differently and we can leave it at that.
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 20:57:03 GMT -5
Ender is ranked #142 right now using OPS. Seems the old school numbers are saying he's not that great of a hitter as well. You just made my point. Sabermetrics are statistical gymnastics. As for Ender, there are 30 teams with roughly 400 position players, so is 142 that bad? Statistically, that puts him firmly in the top 40% or so.
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 21:03:34 GMT -5
You're consumed by sabermetrics. Those are the same numbers that tried to tell us Jason Heyward was a great player. He has never been a great player. Heyward was tremendously overvalued because of defense.....in right field, no less. By the same token, Ender Inciarte is undervalued by those same metrics because of singles. These numbers are useful, but they are flawed just like any statistics are flawed. It's no coincidence that what most seem to consider the best all-around stat for hitters is OPS......a combination of 2 "old-school" numbers. Neither Billy Beane nor the masturbator invented baseball. I guess you've realized now that our disagreement is more based on sabermetrics than it is Inciarte. We see things differently and we can leave it at that. I don't necessarily disagree with you at all. Just having a conversation. Measure it however you want. Guys that can play can play. The metrics take care of themselves. Sabermetrics are a way to look more in-depth at player performance, which is great. They do seem to overvalue some things and undervalue others, though. I happen to think singles are undervalued. Like I tell my kids, nobody ever scored a run from the dugout.
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 21:04:02 GMT -5
Nm
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 21:21:40 GMT -5
Ender is ranked #142 right now using OPS. Seems the old school numbers are saying he's not that great of a hitter as well. I just posted this somewhere last night I think, he's also 117th in total bases. Oh well.
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bravepap
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Post by bravepap on Apr 30, 2018 21:48:47 GMT -5
You're consumed by sabermetrics. Those are the same numbers that tried to tell us Jason Heyward was a great player. He has never been a great player. Heyward was tremendously overvalued because of defense.....in right field, no less. By the same token, Ender Inciarte is undervalued by those same metrics because of singles. These numbers are useful, but they are flawed just like any statistics are flawed. It's no coincidence that what most seem to consider the best all-around stat for hitters is OPS......a combination of 2 "old-school" numbers. Neither Billy Beane nor the masturbator invented baseball. My apologies if you are already familiar with this, but every other site I visit uses wRC+ as a way to evaluate position players...up front, I'm a 72 year old guy who is entrenched in "old school" deeply, and my 4 favorites on this team are Ender/Dansby/Johan/Ronald, but I do make extra effort to learn some of the new things that people like to use as tools to better understand a player. I've included a long winded explanation of wRC+, again apologies if you already know this, but very simply it's kind of like WHIP for pitchers where you can quickly look at someone and immediately get a feel for how they perform....it's not an absolute, at least for me, and in layman's terms what it says about Ender last year is that he had a "100" which makes him right on average (an average MLB hitter is pretty good, btw) and since he won the Gold Glove it's "Average hitter with Gold Glove defense"....for most clubs, given the rest of the makeup of the team, this is a "I'll take it 7 days a week"....this year it says he has slightly regressed (and we all knew he got off to a bad start) but a look at other things, like his last 15 games of either conventional or advanced stats, shows that he is heating back up. Long winded way of saying I prefer wRC+ as a quick look tool, as long as I don't stare at it and try to think too deeply about how it got to where it is...but I think we share an opinion that Ender has great value to the team right now, which I also think others believe, and I would be surprised and disappointed if he were to be sent packing.......especially since we have the top offense in the NL. www.fangraphs.com/library/offense/wrc/
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 21:57:03 GMT -5
I totally agree about Ender, and if he continues to steal bases at this pace, his value goes up even more. I will familiarize myself more with wRC+. I always thought of WHIP as being more like OPS.
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