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Post by Drkirby on Apr 29, 2018 10:27:09 GMT -5
Right on cue, Snit
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 29, 2018 11:32:03 GMT -5
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peteorr
Drafted
I am the best player in Phillies franchise history.
Posts: 383
Likes: 61
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Post by peteorr on Apr 29, 2018 18:38:59 GMT -5
It is a personal preference of mine that power/obp be prioritized at the bottom of the lineup if possible. That's why I'm not thrilled by the prospect of Ender (a slap hitting speedster) being at the bottom of the lineup and he surely doesn't deserve to be at the top any longer.
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 29, 2018 19:53:19 GMT -5
What exactly is it that you have against Ender Inciarte? He's a good player on the field, and I think his value to the young "Latino Trio" of Albies, Acuna, and Camargo is important to this team right now, too. I don't get it.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Apr 30, 2018 0:12:22 GMT -5
What exactly is it that you have against Ender Inciarte? He's a good player on the field, and I think his value to the young "Latino Trio" of Albies, Acuna, and Camargo is important to this team right now, too. I don't get it. I don't think pete has anything against Inciarte as a player. He's talking about him specifically as a hitter, which he isn't all that great. It's early, though, so his OBP doesn't bother me as much as it does pete. That being said, as I've repeatedly said, Inciarte is a better 6th hitter, or even 7th. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 0:19:11 GMT -5
What exactly is it that you have against Ender Inciarte? He's a good player on the field, and I think his value to the young "Latino Trio" of Albies, Acuna, and Camargo is important to this team right now, too. I don't get it. I don't think pete has anything against Inciarte as a player. He's talking about him specifically as a hitter, which he isn't all that great. It's early, though, so his OBP doesn't bother me as much as it does pete. That being said, as I've repeatedly said, Inciarte is a better 6th hitter, or even 7th. I have spoken against Inciarte, but my point is that he's not an elite player. That doesn't mean he's not a real good overall baseball player. I think he contributes a lot to the team. But I also think if we got a real good trade offer he's expendable. Having said that, it would have to be a pretty good offer. If we could have a decent defensive CF next year in his place, Inciarte might be packageable (no that's not a real word) with one of our good young arms (not one of the top 3) to help get us a really good starting pitcher. If we added a top pitcher and Miller and Kimbrel we could be really good next year. |
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Apr 30, 2018 0:25:02 GMT -5
I don't think pete has anything against Inciarte as a player. He's talking about him specifically as a hitter, which he isn't all that great. It's early, though, so his OBP doesn't bother me as much as it does pete. That being said, as I've repeatedly said, Inciarte is a better 6th hitter, or even 7th. I have spoken against Inciarte, but my point is that he's not an elite player. That doesn't mean he's not a real good overall baseball player. I think he contributes a lot to the team. But I also think if we got a real good trade offer he's expendable. Having said that, it would have to be a pretty good offer. If we could have a decent defensive CF next year in his place, Inciarte might be packageable (no that's not a real word) with one of our good young arms (not one of the top 3) to help get us a really good starting pitcher. If we added a top pitcher and Miller and Kimbrel we could be really good next year. I mean, while Inciarte doesn't do much with the bat, his defense is elite and for that he could be a huge plus on a team where defense is a priority. If he's a 3+ WAR player, with glove and bat, then he's a good player and on this team should hit 7th or 8th, which is totally fine. I know that eventually the Braves are gonna trade some pitching prospects, they essentially have to. Folty/Newk/Gohara/Soroka are virtually guaranteed, and Allard and Fried are there, or right around the corner. Then in the next couple of years there's Toussaint/Wentz/Wright/Wilson, among others. I could easily see a struggling team with an Ace looking to deal. Hard to say who that'll be at this stage in the game, but it's certainly possible. Sean Manaea, anyone? |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 0:31:35 GMT -5
I have spoken against Inciarte, but my point is that he's not an elite player. That doesn't mean he's not a real good overall baseball player. I think he contributes a lot to the team. But I also think if we got a real good trade offer he's expendable. Having said that, it would have to be a pretty good offer. If we could have a decent defensive CF next year in his place, Inciarte might be packageable (no that's not a real word) with one of our good young arms (not one of the top 3) to help get us a really good starting pitcher. If we added a top pitcher and Miller and Kimbrel we could be really good next year. I mean, while Inciarte doesn't do much with the bat, his defense is elite and for that he could be a huge plus on a team where defense is a priority. If he's a 3+ WAR player, with glove and bat, then he's a good player and on this team should hit 7th or 8th, which is totally fine. I know that eventually the Braves are gonna trade some pitching prospects, they essentially have to. Folty/Newk/Gohara/Soroka are virtually guaranteed, and Allard and Fried are there, or right around the corner. Then in the next couple of years there's Toussaint/Wentz/Wright/Wilson, among others. I could easily see a struggling team with an Ace looking to deal. Hard to say who that'll be at this stage in the game, but it's certainly possible. Sean Manaea, anyone? I agree....but I do think I like to give a little more credit to Ender with the bat than to say he doesn't do much--he just doesn't get extra base hits and he doesn't hit the ball very hard on a regular basis. I don't advocate trading him unless it's in a package to get a REALLY good pitcher and that we have a good defensive CF to take his place. But I also agree he shouldn't be hitting leadoff. I'd rather see him hit 7th or 8th. |
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Post by bravesfanmatt on Apr 30, 2018 5:38:59 GMT -5
Ender is a valuable piece for about two more years. By then his speed will have reduced too much to provide the defense needed to carry his lack of hitting. I would look at packaging him either this offseason or next. The offer has to be strong this off season for me to trade him. The key is twitner not batting him leadoff. Never a huge fan of the nine hole. But I will ride it out as long as Johan is playing 3rd. RF is just another Ender with the bat. I don’t want to see RF. Pitcher. Ended as our 7-8-9.
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 7:40:49 GMT -5
I get that he doesn't get a lot of XBH, but only Blackmon and Altuve had more hits last year than Ender did. That's pretty good. My biggest complaint with him offensively ain't the lack of XBH, but that he's not patient enough. It seems that a lotta people are the same way with hitting as they are pitching. If hitters don't hit homers, and pitchers don't throw 98 MPH, they're useless, and that just ain't so.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 7:56:00 GMT -5
I get that he doesn't get a lot of XBH, but only Blackmon and Altuve had more hits last year than Ender did. That's pretty good. My biggest complaint with him offensively ain't the lack of XBH, but that he's not patient enough. It seems that a lotta people are the same way with hitting as they are pitching. If hitters don't hit homers, and pitchers don't throw 98 MPH, they're useless, and that just ain't so. Nobody has said Inciarte is useless. The number of hits is nice, but to use old school terms, compare him to other hitters with total bases. It matters when evaluating him offensively. He’s a good offensive player, just not elite. |
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Post by keystone61 on Apr 30, 2018 8:39:04 GMT -5
I get that he doesn't get a lot of XBH, but only Blackmon and Altuve had more hits last year than Ender did. That's pretty good. My biggest complaint with him offensively ain't the lack of XBH, but that he's not patient enough. It seems that a lotta people are the same way with hitting as they are pitching. If hitters don't hit homers, and pitchers don't throw 98 MPH, they're useless, and that just ain't so. Nobody has said Inciarte is useless. The number of hits is nice, but to use old school terms, compare him to other hitters with total bases. It matters when evaluating him offensively. He’s a good offensive player, just not elite. Fair enough. He is an elite defender, though, and at his present pace, an elite base stealer as well. Total bases is a good yardstick for a hitter. Why it's considered "old school" is beyond me. I guess it's not convoluted enough for the sabermetrics crowd. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 9:20:08 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I checked, Ender ranks 113th in total bases this year. He’s 142nd in OPS.
As I posted the other day, and I think it’s notewothy, he ranks 91st in OBP during his career.
Ozzie leads all of baseball in total bases with 75. Interestingly, Bryce Harper is tied for 53rd with 47. Ozzie has 22 XBH and Harper has 9. Harper has 8 HR and 1 double. Wow.
And I do agree Ender is elite defensively.
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Post by littlebeast1 on Apr 30, 2018 9:45:52 GMT -5
I'd much rather have Ender in CF than most of the trash we've trotted out there the past few years.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 30, 2018 10:16:35 GMT -5
I'd much rather have Ender in CF than most of the trash we've trotted out there the past few years. No argument there! |
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