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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Nov 26, 2019 18:58:44 GMT -5
Like Flowers, this is another case where I don't get where the defensive numbers come from on Ozuna, he's terrible. I've seen him play quite a lot over the last two years, and his arm is toast. He doesn't cover much ground and he doesn't read balls well either. He also has a career OPS of .784, a career wRC+ of 112 and is a very up and down hitter. He's had one big year, and like was the case with Harper for some reason people think that's the player they're going to get with this guy. If he wasn't paid a lot he'd be a decent guy to have, but he's not worth a biggish contract. I wouldn't say his arm is toast. He was battling a shoulder injury at one point. I can't really talk about how he reads balls in play, but the numbers suggest that he's not bad. He's not gonna make any spectacular plays, but he's not gonna butcher the sod. His OPS last year was .804 and I don't understand how you're using a 112 wRC+ as a negative. That's 12% above average. I can totally get your argument if it's that the Braves should try to sign Castellanos, Gardner or make a trade for someone better. I'm merely basing my opinion on the rumors I'm hearing. I don't hear anything about the Braves being interested in Castellanos or have I read anything about them trying trade for the other 10 LFers that were better than he was this past season. |
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Post by keystone61 on Nov 26, 2019 19:05:35 GMT -5
Are we really pursuing Ozuna, though? Not saying we aren't, but I can't imagine teams lining up to get him. MLBTR has the Braves as one of five teams interested. I’m sure there are quite a few teams interested. He’ll only be 29 and he has the ability to be a 3.0+ WAR player. 110 wRC+ is nothing to sneeze at. Offer him a pillow contract then tell him to pound sand. Guy's had one really good year, otherwise he's pretty meh. Time for the Braves to get a stud if they wanna take the next step. I'd much prefer Castellanos even though he sucks in the outfield, too. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 26, 2019 19:06:39 GMT -5
Like Flowers, this is another case where I don't get where the defensive numbers come from on Ozuna, he's terrible. I've seen him play quite a lot over the last two years, and his arm is toast. He doesn't cover much ground and he doesn't read balls well either. He also has a career OPS of .784, a career wRC+ of 112 and is a very up and down hitter. He's had one big year, and like was the case with Harper for some reason people think that's the player they're going to get with this guy. If he wasn't paid a lot he'd be a decent guy to have, but he's not worth a biggish contract. I wouldn't say his arm is toast. He was battling a shoulder injury at one point. I can't really talk about how he reads balls in play, but the numbers suggest that he's not bad. He's not gonna make any spectacular plays, but he's not gonna butcher the sod. His OPS last year was .804 and I don't understand how you're using a 112 wRC+ as a negative. That's 12% above average. I can totally get your argument if it's that the Braves should try to sign Castellanos, Gardner or make a trade for someone better. I'm merely basing my opinion on the rumors I'm hearing. I don't hear anything about the Braves being interested in Castellanos or have I read anything about them trying trade for the other 10 LFers that were better than he was this past season. His arm was shot in 2018 and he had shoulder surgery after the season, and his arm did not get any better in 2019. He can't even make a proper throwing motion. Have you seen him try to throw? He can barely muster enough of a lob to get the ball into the infield. He can't throw from mid range OF to 2nd or 3rd base without the ball bouncing and rolling. It's pretty insane. I believe that early in his career he had a great arm, but that's done with.
I'm combining his 112 wRC+ and his defensive issues to say he's not worth spending a lot of money on.
And he's a complete nutjob too. All kinds of weird realistic garbage he's doing all the time. And that cobra dance thing he does with his hands......what's.....that?
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Post by keystone61 on Nov 26, 2019 19:10:55 GMT -5
I wouldn't say his arm is toast. He was battling a shoulder injury at one point. I can't really talk about how he reads balls in play, but the numbers suggest that he's not bad. He's not gonna make any spectacular plays, but he's not gonna butcher the sod. His OPS last year was .804 and I don't understand how you're using a 112 wRC+ as a negative. That's 12% above average. I can totally get your argument if it's that the Braves should try to sign Castellanos, Gardner or make a trade for someone better. I'm merely basing my opinion on the rumors I'm hearing. I don't hear anything about the Braves being interested in Castellanos or have I read anything about them trying trade for the other 10 LFers that were better than he was this past season. His arm was shot in 2018 and he had shoulder surgery after the season, and his arm did not get any better in 2019. He can't even make a proper throwing motion. Have you seen him try to throw? He can barely muster enough of a lob to get the ball into the infield. He can't throw from mid range OF to 2nd or 3rd base without the ball bouncing and rolling. It's pretty insane. I believe that early in his career he had a great arm, but that's done with.
I'm combining his 112 wRC+ and his defensive issues to say he's not worth spending a lot of money on.
And he's a complete nutjob too. All kinds of weird realistic garbage he's doing all the time. And that cobra dance thing he does with his hands......what's.....that?
If his arm's that bad, we don't need him period. Sounds like an AL player to me. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 26, 2019 19:21:18 GMT -5
His arm was shot in 2018 and he had shoulder surgery after the season, and his arm did not get any better in 2019. He can't even make a proper throwing motion. Have you seen him try to throw? He can barely muster enough of a lob to get the ball into the infield. He can't throw from mid range OF to 2nd or 3rd base without the ball bouncing and rolling. It's pretty insane. I believe that early in his career he had a great arm, but that's done with.
I'm combining his 112 wRC+ and his defensive issues to say he's not worth spending a lot of money on.
And he's a complete nutjob too. All kinds of weird realistic garbage he's doing all the time. And that cobra dance thing he does with his hands......what's.....that?
If his arm's that bad, we don't need him period. Sounds like an AL player to me. His arm and his declining defense (and inconsistent hitting) are why the Cardinals don't want him. They offered the Q.O. knowing he wouldn't accept it. Think about it--on the surface he is EXACTLY the kind of bat they need in the middle of their order, they're a very weak offensive team WITH him. So why would they let him move on? He just had two "ok" years with them. He's not close to an elite player, I don't know what he'll end up getting paid, but I sure hope we pass on him. |
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Nov 26, 2019 19:25:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't say his arm is toast. He was battling a shoulder injury at one point. I can't really talk about how he reads balls in play, but the numbers suggest that he's not bad. He's not gonna make any spectacular plays, but he's not gonna butcher the sod. His OPS last year was .804 and I don't understand how you're using a 112 wRC+ as a negative. That's 12% above average. I can totally get your argument if it's that the Braves should try to sign Castellanos, Gardner or make a trade for someone better. I'm merely basing my opinion on the rumors I'm hearing. I don't hear anything about the Braves being interested in Castellanos or have I read anything about them trying trade for the other 10 LFers that were better than he was this past season. His arm was shot in 2018 and he had shoulder surgery after the season, and his arm did not get any better in 2019. He can't even make a proper throwing motion. Have you seen him try to throw? He can barely muster enough of a lob to get the ball into the infield. He can't throw from mid range OF to 2nd or 3rd base without the ball bouncing and rolling. It's pretty insane. I believe that early in his career he had a great arm, but that's done with.
I'm combining his 112 wRC+ and his defensive issues to say he's not worth spending a lot of money on.
And he's a complete nutjob too. All kinds of weird realistic garbage he's doing all the time. And that cobra dance thing he does with his hands......what's.....that?
Your about to have cognitive dissonance, this is your warning. UZR takes this into account.. ● Outfield Arm Runs (ARM) – The amount of runs above average an outfielder saves with their arm by preventing runners from advancing. ● Double-Play Runs (DPR) – The amount of runs above average an infielder is by turning double-plays. ● Range Runs (RngR) – Is the player an Ozzie Smith or an Adam Dunn? Do they get to more balls than average or not? ● Error Runs (ErrR) – Does the player commit more or fewer errors compared with a league-average player at their position? Based on all qualified LFers, Ozuna had the best UZR with 5.7. Now, that's not Gold Glover caliber. It's not even great, but he's above average. library.fangraphs.com/defense/uzr/www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2019-01-01&enddate=2019-12-31&sort=24,d Even if you drop it down to 700 innings played, he's second behind David Peralta. |
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Post by keystone61 on Nov 26, 2019 19:33:33 GMT -5
I honestly don't know enough about him to have a valid argument either way. I've always thought he was an overrated player, though.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 26, 2019 19:35:06 GMT -5
His arm was shot in 2018 and he had shoulder surgery after the season, and his arm did not get any better in 2019. He can't even make a proper throwing motion. Have you seen him try to throw? He can barely muster enough of a lob to get the ball into the infield. He can't throw from mid range OF to 2nd or 3rd base without the ball bouncing and rolling. It's pretty insane. I believe that early in his career he had a great arm, but that's done with.
I'm combining his 112 wRC+ and his defensive issues to say he's not worth spending a lot of money on.
And he's a complete nutjob too. All kinds of weird realistic garbage he's doing all the time. And that cobra dance thing he does with his hands......what's.....that?
Your about to have cognitive dissonance, this is your warning. UZR takes this into account.. ● Outfield Arm Runs (ARM) – The amount of runs above average an outfielder saves with their arm by preventing runners from advancing. ● Double-Play Runs (DPR) – The amount of runs above average an infielder is by turning double-plays. ● Range Runs (RngR) – Is the player an Ozzie Smith or an Adam Dunn? Do they get to more balls than average or not? ● Error Runs (ErrR) – Does the player commit more or fewer errors compared with a league-average player at their position? Based on all qualified LFers, Ozuna had the best UZR with 5.7. Now, that's not Gold Glover caliber. It's not even great, but he's above average. library.fangraphs.com/defense/uzr/www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2019-01-01&enddate=2019-12-31&sort=24,d Even if you drop it down to 700 innings played, he's second behind David Peralta. I realize all that, and we've had some conversations lately about the accuracy of defensive analytics. I'm not sure I've ever had a lot of confidence in them, but as time goes on I'm feeling less and less confident.
I'm saying I've seen him play a lot over the last two years, I've not gotten a response from you yet saying that you HAVE seen him play. And I do not believe he had to make a single throw of any significance in our playoff series so that doesn't count.
Not that this one play makes my point, I'm not trying to do that, but this is an all time epic play:
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Post by keystone61 on Nov 26, 2019 19:39:32 GMT -5
I realize all that, and we've had some conversations lately about the accuracy of defensive analytics. I'm not sure I've ever had a lot of confidence in them, but as time goes on I'm feeling less and less confident.
I'm saying I've seen him play a lot over the last two years, I've not gotten a response from you yet saying that you HAVE seen him play. And I do not believe he had to make a single throw of any significance in our playoff series so that doesn't count.
Not that this one play makes my point, I'm not trying to do that, but this is an all time epic play:
LMAO. I'd never seen that. That might be the worst play I've ever seen! |
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Nov 26, 2019 19:43:02 GMT -5
I realize all that, and we've had some conversations lately about the accuracy of defensive analytics. I'm not sure I've ever had a lot of confidence in them, but as time goes on I'm feeling less and less confident.
I'm saying I've seen him play a lot over the last two years, I've not gotten a response from you yet saying that you HAVE seen him play. And I do not believe he had to make a single throw of any significance in our playoff series so that doesn't count.
Not that this one play makes my point, I'm not trying to do that, but this is an all time epic play:
He's certainly unconventional, but c'mon dude, the Braves trotted out Austin Riley for 60 games, this really can't be that big of a deal here. The numbers are the numbers, and maybe there are flaws, there probably are, but they're the best we have at the moment, and if the choice is between trusting these stats, or our eyes, I'm taking the stats. Biggest mistake of that play was that he didn't double check the flight of the ball. He just assumed it was going out. It wasn't, lol. |
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akod
Low A Farmhand
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Post by akod on Nov 26, 2019 19:52:39 GMT -5
Ozuna is the kind of signing you could expect from frank wren that would backfire immediately.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Nov 26, 2019 20:04:19 GMT -5
Ozuna is the kind of signing you could expect from frank wren that would backfire immediately. I'm not standing on the Ozuna hill and planting a flag, but I just don't get this take. Ozuna is an above average player and the Braves are in need of above average players. If you have a better idea then say so. I'm willing to debate on the merits. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 26, 2019 20:37:27 GMT -5
I realize all that, and we've had some conversations lately about the accuracy of defensive analytics. I'm not sure I've ever had a lot of confidence in them, but as time goes on I'm feeling less and less confident.
I'm saying I've seen him play a lot over the last two years, I've not gotten a response from you yet saying that you HAVE seen him play. And I do not believe he had to make a single throw of any significance in our playoff series so that doesn't count.
Not that this one play makes my point, I'm not trying to do that, but this is an all time epic play:
The numbers are the numbers, and maybe there are flaws, there probably are, but they're the best we have at the moment, and if the choice is between trusting these stats, or our eyes, I'm taking the stats. Biggest mistake of that play was that he didn't double check the flight of the ball. He just assumed it was going out. It wasn't, lol. The difference is the cost. I just hope we don't spend a bunch of money on Ozuna. I'm not a fan of him to begin with, but especially if we put much money into him. I thought really highly of him a few years ago, but not at this point. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 26, 2019 20:39:47 GMT -5
I realize all that, and we've had some conversations lately about the accuracy of defensive analytics. I'm not sure I've ever had a lot of confidence in them, but as time goes on I'm feeling less and less confident.
I'm saying I've seen him play a lot over the last two years, I've not gotten a response from you yet saying that you HAVE seen him play. And I do not believe he had to make a single throw of any significance in our playoff series so that doesn't count.
Not that this one play makes my point, I'm not trying to do that, but this is an all time epic play:
LMAO. I'd never seen that. That might be the worst play I've ever seen! I like the reaction of the Dodgers bullpen. |
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Post by keystone61 on Nov 26, 2019 20:45:57 GMT -5
I thought Riley was pretty good in the outfield considering his almost total lack of experience out there.
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