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Post by brady2705 on Feb 2, 2020 11:19:16 GMT -5
Wright is untouchable for me. He's got TOR potential, and you don't trade that away. Will he ever reach his potential? We don't know, but it's a risk I don't want to take. He's still only 24. deGrom, arguably the best pitcher in the game, didn't make the big leagues until he was 26. You don't give up on guys like that. I respect that. However, you have to give up talent to get talent, and I'd much rather trade Weight than Anderson, and to me Waters and Pache should also be untouchable. By trading Wright and Touissant, we still have Anderson, Wilson, Muller, Davidson, and others I'm sure In overlooking. I still feel confident we have potentially an ace in that grouping, if not at least 2 solid MLB pitchers. |
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Post by keystone61 on Feb 2, 2020 11:29:55 GMT -5
Bryant is good. There's no doubt about that. He's also a marginal defender, and has a history of back issues, plus he's only got 2 years of control left. It's tempting, though. I don't like trading young, high ceiling pitchers in general. Good pitchers are the most important (and most volatile) of all baseball assets. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I'll agree with you that a healthy Bryant makes our lineup awfully good. He COULD put us over the top.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Feb 2, 2020 12:21:57 GMT -5
Pfft on this Snit handling people defense... He should have addressed Acuña sooner. Acuña really didn't change after he finally did something. We don't know if our young players would have fared worse or better under someone else. Defending him with this is doing it using a bunch of hypotheticals where you just assume the narrative you want to believe. Out of curiosity, why do you assume Snit didn’t address it and Acuña isn't just a bonehead? |
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Feb 2, 2020 12:23:17 GMT -5
Question for the board: Would you want to trade for Kris Bryant, and if so, what would your max offer be? For me, I think I've decided Yes. I have a ton of hope/faith in Johan Camargo. I think there's a *possibility* he really turned a corner in late 2019, and he could be one of the better 3B in the game moving forward ... Potentially even better than Bryant. However ... There's a lot of risk there. And I think with Riley, having Bryant for 2 years allows Riley a solid timeline to mature into the future at 3B. Start in AAA this year, come up to replace an injury in corner OF or corner IF if needed, and be a role player in 2021 as he readies for everyday action in 2022. That timeline works for me. Meanwhile, Bryant gives us a legit WS lineup with much less risk than Camargo or Riley brings. So for me ... Any trade for Bryant must include Camargo. We can't have 3 MLB third baseman on the club. Then, max Is go is two pitchers -- Wright and Touissant. Camargo Wright Touissant for Bryant 1 RF R Acuna 2 2B S Albies 3 1B L Freeman 4 3B R Bryant 5 LF R Ozuna 6 C_ R d'Arnau 7 SS R Swanson 8 PITCHER 9 CF L Inciarte I’d be interested, at the deadline. I wanna first see what Riley and the GOAT bring to the table. What would I give up? A slight overpay on his surplus value. |
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Feb 2, 2020 12:40:28 GMT -5
Bryce Wilson, and a bag of oranges.
I want to give the job to Camargo so I don't have to hear for the next 10 years about how great he would have been.
Give him the job and lets see if he can swim. If he sinks we have the Riley back up plan.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Feb 2, 2020 12:56:23 GMT -5
Pfft on this Snit handling people defense... He should have addressed Acuña sooner. Acuña really didn't change after he finally did something. We don't know if our young players would have fared worse or better under someone else. Defending him with this is doing it using a bunch of hypotheticals where you just assume the narrative you want to believe. Out of curiosity, why do you assume Snit didn’t address it and Acuña isn't just a bonehead? Address it as in sit him down. I assume that didn't happen due to the fact that I saw Acuña in the lineup. Honestly... he may have addressed it. I am really just tired of the excuses made for what are very tangible examples of strategic buffoonery with the major defense being an unprovable hypothetical. I'm sick of this "nice guy" image of our entire organization and our willingness to PC cower when faced with issues like the chop... our unwillingness to retaliate while opposing pitchers repeatedly bean our stars, opposing managers mock us, and we get clowned on the field. All of this is personified in Snitker, not to mention the strategic stuff which I won't rehash for the 99th time. I am over the top about it, I know. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Feb 2, 2020 13:20:29 GMT -5
I wouldn’t include Wright either. From what I’ve read they wouldn’t even take that deal, it’s not even close. So for me I wouldn’t do it, because the price is too high for just two years of Bryant. And there’s risk with Bryant too, between his back and his defensive numbers slipping.
The farthest I would go for Bryant would be Inciarte, Camargo, and then a mid level prospect, but I’m sure that wouldn’t get it done either.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Feb 2, 2020 13:23:59 GMT -5
Pfft on this Snit handling people defense... He should have addressed Acuña sooner. Acuña really didn't change after he finally did something. We don't know if our young players would have fared worse or better under someone else. Defending him with this is doing it using a bunch of hypotheticals where you just assume the narrative you want to believe. Out of curiosity, why do you assume Snit didn’t address it and Acuña isn't just a bonehead? My guess would be because if Snit had addressed it earlier then he would have been all over Acuna the next several times he did it. This goes back to last year, he’s done it 4 or 5 times. It’s not like it just happened twice this year. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Feb 2, 2020 13:35:13 GMT -5
And to those taking shots at Camargo, I don’t think I or anyone else has ever acted like he was going to be a star so don’t blow that out of proportion, you’re both better than that. All that’s ever been voiced is a belief that he’s a solid player who could be a real good piece of the puzzle. Since he’s given us a 3.7 WAR season already it’s not a stretch to expect him to be a consistent 2.5 to 3 WAR player, with the potential to be better than that. To me you need to find a way to keep that guy on the field. That’s not to claim in any way he is going to be some kind of elite player. A big part of that whole argument isn’t to compare Camargo to JD, that’s ridiculous, that argument is about addressing other more important weaknesses if we’re going to spend money or trade players.
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Post by keystone61 on Feb 2, 2020 15:20:24 GMT -5
All the offense in the world won't win a championship. You have to have an ace (or 2) to go along with it. If I'm trading Wright, it's as part of a package to pick up an established ace. Who might that be? The answer is pretty much nobody. That's why you hold onto high ceiling starters. They're rare, and when it's time to pay them, the dollars are absurd. Look no further than the David Price contract. You have to grow your own aces. IMO.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Feb 2, 2020 16:36:49 GMT -5
If you are talking to me, I am not taking shots at Camargo. I want him to get his chance and I want him to succeed. He doesn't have to be a superstar to do that; he just has to come close to what he did in 2018.
... but yeah, I don't want him to not get his chance and then have to deal with all the what if comments.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Feb 2, 2020 16:42:33 GMT -5
and I don't even want to deal with my own wondering of "what if".
I was fine with signing JD, but I'm not fine with giving up what I think we would have to give up to get Bryant or anyone else. I said way back that if we didn't get JD then option 2 should be to go with Camargo and Riley.
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Post by keystone61 on Feb 2, 2020 17:10:32 GMT -5
Riley might be Bryant or Donaldson in waiting for all we know, although his bat speed does still concern me a bit. I'm fine with what we're doing, though. If both Riley and Camargo fall short, it's a lot cheaper than giving Donaldson $100 million at age 34, and we can always add at the deadline.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Feb 2, 2020 17:22:06 GMT -5
Yeah I've complained about what happened to Camargo, but I have also always included Riley when I talk about what he have right now at 3B. I think Riley clearly has a higher ceiling, just based on potential. I'm just glad we're going to give those two guys a chance. The other thing that has REALLY bothered me about the Camargo thing is the value we lost by not moving him before the 2019 season. I totally get why we signed JD like we did, but I also honestly believe if Camargo had played every day in RF in 2019 he would have had a much better WAR than what Nick gave us. But obviously there was a zero percent chance of that happening. So we had no plan to really give Camargo a fair chance in 2019 going into it--he did have a bad start to the season and that limited his use even further, but in the big picture that was a really short leash for a guy coming off a 3.7 WAR season. So I think we should have traded him before the season, we could have gotten something real nice in return that could have actually helped us and would be a better fit for what we were after. If he does get a fair shake this year, then it's all worked out in the long run as far as fit, but if he struggles and goes to the bench again or to the minors we really wasted a chance to sell real high on a player who wasn't really in our long term plans.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Feb 2, 2020 17:33:50 GMT -5
One other thought about Camargo, when he fouled that ball off his shin and broke the bone or whatever happened there, that almost felt like fate just saying you know what, things just aren't meant to be for you in Atlanta. After tearing it up in Gwinnett, he came back to the Braves and hit two homers and two doubles in 12 AB's before that injury. He was in prime position to really have his foot in the door and had the potential to help us a lot in the playoffs, then that B.S. happened. I mean how many times do guys foul balls off their shins without breaking a bone? I've seen a million, and only once do I recall a season ending bone break being the result. I'm just venting some anger I felt over it at the time, it was a good time for him to have a chance to step up, instead we ended up trying to rely on Rafael Or-freaking-tega who went .143/.217/.238/.455 in September then 0 for 3 in the playoffs.
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