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Post by Fumbduckery on Mar 3, 2019 21:17:47 GMT -5
What's the fun in spending crazy money in hopes of buying a championship?
It almost never works anyway.
I just saw a write up the other day showing how poorly these big money teams historically do in reality, I'll have to try to dig that up.
I really don't think a $50 million dollar 3 year contract is crazy money in this day and time. I wanted Marwin Gonzalez, who could have been had for far less than that, and I'm betting would have preferred Atlanta over Minnesota, but no, we re-signed Nick in spite of the fact that Gonzalez is younger and a much more useful player. Why? Because he was cheap. It's not the crazy money deals that bug me, it's deals like that which chap my ass. We were not going to get McCutchen for $50M for three years. That's why I specifically mentioned that he was also offered a 4th year option--it was a $15M team option with a $3M buyout if the Faillies declined the option to resign him. So we would have had to offer more money than $50M, and we would have had to also match the offer of the 4th year. As much as I like McCutchen, I don't see him as that kind of a player at this point of his career.
Marwin Gonzalez pretty much simply sucks. He had one really really good season, and the rest of the time he has sucked. That's why there was no real market for him. He got two years for what, $21M? That's for a player who most likely is going to really suck. If he was a good player he would have gotten a better deal. He's just simply a guy who isn't good enough to interest almost every team in baseball. Why wouldn't the Astros want to keep him? Same with Keuchel.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Mar 3, 2019 21:19:14 GMT -5
Actually, I don't think that at all. I understand the market aspects of it, which means I understand that guys like Acuna, GAPOZ, Camargo, Newcomb, Swanson, etc are minimum wage players who don't have to be paid for a while. That's why I said SHORT-TERM contracts. What I'd like to have is another egotistical billionaire owner who wants to win for the sake of winning. It's not just the Braves, either. What happened to colorful owners like Steinbrenner, Finley, and Turner? All the fun has been sucked out of the game in the name of analytics and business. It sucks. Sure, there’s a lot of things I’d like, but you don’t see me complaining about it every chance I get. At a certain point it can’t be “I wish the Braves had a new owner” and we start dealing with reality and talk about how the Braves can build a long term winner under this reality.Fixed that for ya.
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Post by keystone61 on Mar 3, 2019 21:40:02 GMT -5
I really don't think a $50 million dollar 3 year contract is crazy money in this day and time. I wanted Marwin Gonzalez, who could have been had for far less than that, and I'm betting would have preferred Atlanta over Minnesota, but no, we re-signed Nick in spite of the fact that Gonzalez is younger and a much more useful player. Why? Because he was cheap. It's not the crazy money deals that bug me, it's deals like that which chap my ass. We were not going to get McCutchen for $50M for three years. That's why I specifically mentioned that he was also offered a 4th year option--it was a $15M team option with a $3M buyout if the Faillies declined the option to resign him. So we would have had to offer more money than $50M, and we would have had to also match the offer of the 4th year. As much as I like McCutchen, I don't see him as that kind of a player at this point of his career.
Marwin Gonzalez pretty much simply sucks. He had one really really good season, and the rest of the time he has sucked. That's why there was no real market for him. He got two years for what, $21M? That's for a player who most likely is going to really suck. If he was a good player he would have gotten a better deal. He's just simply a guy who isn't good enough to interest almost every team in baseball. Why wouldn't the Astros want to keep him? Same with Keuchel.
Please don't complain with the results we get from our young pitchers or Nick. You say Gonzalez sucks. May be, but you can play him all over the field. Nick sucks, too, and is limited to one defensive position, and I'll pretty much guarantee you that he gets over 500 at-bats and plays in 150 games or more. He was useless after July last year, but hey, he's a great guy......and he's cheap. Everybody wants to talk like a GM. Sorry, I don't. I'm just a fan. I hope this works out for the Braves because I'm a Braves fan. I'm trying to be optimistic. We'll see.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Mar 3, 2019 21:57:33 GMT -5
We were not going to get McCutchen for $50M for three years. That's why I specifically mentioned that he was also offered a 4th year option--it was a $15M team option with a $3M buyout if the Faillies declined the option to resign him. So we would have had to offer more money than $50M, and we would have had to also match the offer of the 4th year. As much as I like McCutchen, I don't see him as that kind of a player at this point of his career.
Marwin Gonzalez pretty much simply sucks. He had one really really good season, and the rest of the time he has sucked. That's why there was no real market for him. He got two years for what, $21M? That's for a player who most likely is going to really suck. If he was a good player he would have gotten a better deal. He's just simply a guy who isn't good enough to interest almost every team in baseball. Why wouldn't the Astros want to keep him? Same with Keuchel.
Please don't complain with the results we get from our young pitchers or Nick. You say Gonzalez sucks. May be, but you can play him all over the field. Nick sucks, too, and is limited to one defensive position, and I'll pretty much guarantee you that he gets over 500 at-bats and plays in 150 games or more. He was useless after July last year, but hey, he's a great guy......and he's cheap. Everybody wants to talk like a GM. Sorry, I don't. I'm just a fan. I hope this works out for the Braves because I'm a Braves fan. I'm trying to be optimistic. We'll see. Well you won't hear me complaining if our young pitching struggles, I've called for us to go with them all along. I'd love to have a guy like Kluber, but I can also accept that we're trying to build a contending team for many years. And we're up against extenuating circumstances--we aren't going to be a top 10 payroll team, and we do have the punishments that hurt us. That's not trying to talk like a GM, that's realizing what the facts are.
Personally, if I had my way, Camargo would be our starting SS from day one--he's made two plays in spring at SS already that show he has plenty of range. But since he's not going to be in that role, then he's the guy that we would be using instead of Marwin to play all over. I'm not impressed that Marwin can play anywhere, when he sucks everywhere. For the record, Nick had a much better season than Marwin did last year. And that's coming from me, a guy who loves Nick as a person and hates him as a ballplayer--I just don't care to have a grandpa in RF whose only benefit is that he hits line drives and gets on base. But literally does nothing else. And all the same, I'd still rather have Nick at $4M and Camargo to cover RF than sucky Marwin at $21M for two years.
If you're trying to be optimistic, you're doing a great job of hiding it.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Mar 3, 2019 22:51:15 GMT -5
We were not going to get McCutchen for $50M for three years. That's why I specifically mentioned that he was also offered a 4th year option--it was a $15M team option with a $3M buyout if the Faillies declined the option to resign him. So we would have had to offer more money than $50M, and we would have had to also match the offer of the 4th year. As much as I like McCutchen, I don't see him as that kind of a player at this point of his career.
Marwin Gonzalez pretty much simply sucks. He had one really really good season, and the rest of the time he has sucked. That's why there was no real market for him. He got two years for what, $21M? That's for a player who most likely is going to really suck. If he was a good player he would have gotten a better deal. He's just simply a guy who isn't good enough to interest almost every team in baseball. Why wouldn't the Astros want to keep him? Same with Keuchel.
Please don't complain with the results we get from our young pitchers or Nick. You say Gonzalez sucks. May be, but you can play him all over the field. Nick sucks, too, and is limited to one defensive position, and I'll pretty much guarantee you that he gets over 500 at-bats and plays in 150 games or more. He was useless after July last year, but hey, he's a great guy......and he's cheap. Everybody wants to talk like a GM. Sorry, I don't. I'm just a fan. I hope this works out for the Braves because I'm a Braves fan. I'm trying to be optimistic. We'll see. Why should he complain? You’ll end up complaining enough for the both of you.
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Post by keystone61 on Mar 3, 2019 23:33:50 GMT -5
I'm not complaining. Also, saying Marwin Gonzalez sucks over and over doesn't make it true. 2.5 WAR in 2018. Don't all the analytics experts say free agents cost about $9 million per WAR? Sounds like a pretty good buy to me.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Mar 3, 2019 23:48:36 GMT -5
I'm not complaining. Also, saying Marwin Gonzalez sucks over and over doesn't make it true. 2.5 WAR in 2018. Don't all the analytics experts say free agents cost about $9 million per WAR? Sounds like a pretty good buy to me. Fangraphs had him at 1.6 WAR last year.
But going by generous Baseball Reference, let's take a look at Marwin:
2012 -0.1 WAR (that's a minus sign)
2013 0.5 WAR
2014 1.5 WAR 2015 1.9 WAR 2016 1.3 WAR 2017 4.3 WAR 2018 2.5 WAR
So yeah, that clearly shows that he's a really good player, which is why he got that huge 2 year $21M deal from a team that hasn't been within 12 games of a division title in 8 years. My god the Astros are so stupid, and all those other contenders that let him slip away!
And nobody ever said free agents cost $9M per WAR. That's a terrible misunderstanding of that $9M per WAR thing. It does not relate to real actual value. I know that sounds stupid, it does to me too, and I've tried to get a better handle on it...but at any rate there's no claim that a free agent is worth $9M per WAR.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Mar 4, 2019 7:43:26 GMT -5
I'm glad I don't let the lack of free agency spending bother me. I don't feel like rehashing for the 8th time all the reasons why it doesn't bother me, but I am glad it doesn't.
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Post by keystone61 on Mar 4, 2019 8:57:11 GMT -5
I'm glad I don't let the lack of free agency spending bother me. I don't feel like rehashing for the 8th time all the reasons why it doesn't bother me, but I am glad it doesn't. That's not what bothers me, either. Re-signing Neck is what bothers me. If it doesn't bother you, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how it could not bother any Braves fan, but hey, that's just me. He was cheap!! Yay!!!!
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Mar 4, 2019 9:37:11 GMT -5
I didn't really care to see neck re-signed, but I'm not going to worry about it very much.
This really isn't directed at you, but it seems there are some folk who think that the Braves management is actively trying not to win or have a long term success model. I just don't see it that way. Plus I have been fairly pleased with the overall direction of the team so I try not to nitpick every single move even if there are some of them that I don't understand or agree with.
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Post by keystone61 on Mar 4, 2019 15:29:07 GMT -5
I didn't really care to see neck re-signed, but I'm not going to worry about it very much. This really isn't directed at you, but it seems there are some folk who think that the Braves management is actively trying not to win or have a long term success model. I just don't see it that way. Plus I have been fairly pleased with the overall direction of the team so I try not to nitpick every single move even if there are some of them that I don't understand or agree with. I'm all about the long-term success model, and the overall direction of the team. I get that the Braves are gun-shy from some bad moves in the past like Uggla and Melvin (or BJ or whatever the hell he wants to be called now). I get it, and I don't wanna repeat it, but there's a balance between being gun-shy and being trigger-happy that I'd like for them to find........hopefully, they will.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Mar 4, 2019 15:38:32 GMT -5
I didn't really care to see neck re-signed, but I'm not going to worry about it very much. This really isn't directed at you, but it seems there are some folk who think that the Braves management is actively trying not to win or have a long term success model. I just don't see it that way. Plus I have been fairly pleased with the overall direction of the team so I try not to nitpick every single move even if there are some of them that I don't understand or agree with. I'm all about the long-term success model, and the overall direction of the team. I get that the Braves are gun-shy from some bad moves in the past like Uggla and Melvin (or BJ or whatever the hell he wants to be called now). I get it, and I don't wanna repeat it, but there's a balance between being gun-shy and being trigger-happy that I'd like for them to find........hopefully, they will. The big concern is that aside from the really great pitching prospects we have, and Pache and maybe 1-2 other position guys, our farm system could be really fragile within a year to three years if we're not careful. To me that's the danger we need to avoid, so we don't end up in another rebuild anytime soon.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Mar 5, 2019 0:34:31 GMT -5
I'm glad I don't let the lack of free agency spending bother me. I don't feel like rehashing for the 8th time all the reasons why it doesn't bother me, but I am glad it doesn't. From Kiley McDaniels' chats over the last couple of months ... Jonathan: Is it time for Braves fans to panic about stingy ownership? They’re set to open with a significantly lower payroll from a year ago, and their in arguably the most improved division of the 2019 offseason (especially if Harper, Machado or both sign within the division). Kiley McDaniel: Haha you must not have read last week’s chat. You can all calm down, that money will be spent, they’re just being deliberate and seems like the’re leaning towards seeing exactly what all these AAA/MLB level prospects are before they go make a huge move. Which, to be fair, may be the exact same thing I would do. … Oklahomabrave: "That money will be spent" does that mean it will be spent just perhaps not this season? Kiley McDaniel: Or even at the deadline if things are going better than expected and there’s 1-2 holes to fill and contracts are on the trade market. Also, the whole league is being kinda stingy right now, presumably in part for CBA leverage, so almost every fan base is mad about stuff like this. braves’ fans outrage+ should only be like 105 right now and I feel like it’s 150 … SAM: In a vacuum, signing Nick Markakis is an excellent value deal, but the Braves have now said that this move will force Acuña to move to the 4 hole. How do you weigh the value of signing a player cheap vs the affect of it causing your best player to lose ABs? Kiley McDaniel: This week in Braves fans creating problems where they don’t exist … Robert: How are Braves fans supposed to reconcile $410M+ revenue last year with only an estimated ~$130M payroll? That is an embarrassing low ratio in my opinion. Kiley McDaniel: This applies to any team, we just have Braves financials since they are a publicly traded stock right now. First, there’s a $50 million one-time MLBAM outlay from that investment taking off. Secondly, one way to handle payroll is for it to be mostly static while revenues will jump all over the place depending on if they team is competitive late in the season or if your stadium is new. Kiley McDaniel: So the $50M is a weird, one-time deal and the new stadium mixed with a playoff run and the first in awhile means this is about as good as you’ll do revenue wise…but if they miss the playoffs and revenue goes way down, you don’t want them dropping payroll that amount…so this is one way to keep things sustainable and stable. Kiley McDaniel: You could argue it should bounce around more based on competitive/non competitive cycles, which is what TB does and it sounds like what SEA is doing. The idea is to slash payroll in down years so that you’ll have a higher ceiling in good years. That’s another way to do it and stretch your ceiling a bit higher
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2019 18:57:44 GMT -5
Hey, Neck is a cheap one yr bridge to Pache, and he could be moved at the deadline if the Braves are 10 out.
In the end, the Braves future is Pache and Waters -- forget about FA OF guys may not need them
As for Ender, I hope he is not moved for Dog Dung like we got in the Justin Upton/Kimbrel deal - only thing of value was the Riley pick who is still unproven but probably good with some seasoning
Will we ever develop a pen. They are too cheap to spend and these bullpen kids have the arm but do not know about the smarts to be good MLB pitchers
Sobotka looks like a dum dum throwing ding bat pitches to Judge. And not sure about Biddle. Ability, maybe but man cannot throw dum dum pitches to the best hitters in the game
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akod
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Post by akod on Mar 5, 2019 19:09:08 GMT -5
Hey, Neck is a cheap one yr bridge to Pache, and he could be moved at the deadline if the Braves are 10 out. In the end, the Braves future is Pache and Waters -- forget about FA OF guys may not need them As for Ender, I hope he is not moved for Dog Dung like we got in the Justin Upton/Kimbrel deal - only thing of value was the Riley pick who is still unproven but probably good with some seasoning Will we ever develop a pen. They are too cheap to spend and these bullpen kids have the arm but do not know about the smarts to be good MLB pitchers Sobotka looks like a dum dum throwing ding bat pitches to Judge. And not sure about Biddle. Ability, maybe but man cannot throw dum dum pitches to the best hitters in the game You know when they were not cheap they ended up with bad contracts that caused that Kimbrel trade to be watered down...
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