|
Post by keystone61 on Mar 30, 2020 11:59:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 2, 2020 12:27:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 2, 2020 12:28:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Apr 2, 2020 13:31:25 GMT -5
Well actually the wording says "after completion of the 2020 World Series", so if the season doesn't get played they can be suspended forever.
|
|
|
Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Apr 3, 2020 10:11:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 3, 2020 11:08:38 GMT -5
He’s a good guy, I always liked him and his story. But he does know what needs to be done, just like all of us do—take that trophy and those rings away. "I'm not asking for sympathy or anything like that. If our punishment is being hated by everybody forever, just like, whatever. I don't know what should be done, but something had to f---ing be done.“
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 12:30:34 GMT -5
Sadly they did not have to do that - I still think they have been the best team on the field in the later part of the decade But that championship will be tainted in the minds of most people. They might have been the most egregious, but I am not convinced that other teams did not do some things to some degree but we will never know I think Gattis is a good guy too, sometimes good people can get caught up in bad things even if its just by association Wonder what he is up to these days. The Astros got their punishment fair and square this scandal did not bother me as much as its bothered some, at least its not like what Pete Rose did. Just my thinking that is all
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 12:38:27 GMT -5
I think if you took away the rings and championship trophy, that is cheating the fans who had nothing to do with it
I also think it punishes the players and coaches who were not in on it, - it was the right thing done by the commissioner to not punish everybody the same way
The NCAA is ridiculous the way they have historically done things - that is another issue
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 3, 2020 12:42:44 GMT -5
I'm convinced that the reason they aren't taking the trophy and championship away is because they know cheating was so widespread and they'd be opening a real can of worms. But that doesn't make it right. What's right is to take the trophy away and deal with whatever comes after that. One thing I'm pretty sure would come of it is teams would be pretty reluctant to cheat in any kind of significant way again.
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 3, 2020 12:47:24 GMT -5
I think if you took away the rings and championship trophy, that is cheating the fans who had nothing to do with it I also think it punishes the players and coaches who were not in on it, - it was the right thing done by the commissioner to not punish everybody the same way The NCAA is ridiculous the way they have historically done things - that is another issue I don't know, if it was my team I would not be proud that we won by cheating in such a big way. I'd understand the championship being taken away. I'd be really mad, but I'd be mad at the team for what they did.
In my opinion there's no one who wasn't in on it--if you knew it was going on and kept your mouth shut, to me you were in on it. And I do believe every single one of them knew about it. It would be a tough spot to be in, but everybody has a responsibility to try to stop it. Wasn't it McCann who did speak up and got nowhere with it? I still think you have to stop it or you're as responsible as everybody else. Maybe you do get an asterisk for trying, but still......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 12:28:07 GMT -5
I think if you took away the rings and championship trophy, that is cheating the fans who had nothing to do with it I also think it punishes the players and coaches who were not in on it, - it was the right thing done by the commissioner to not punish everybody the same way The NCAA is ridiculous the way they have historically done things - that is another issue I don't know, if it was my team I would not be proud that we won by cheating in such a big way. I'd understand the championship being taken away. I'd be really mad, but I'd be mad at the team for what they did.
In my opinion there's no one who wasn't in on it--if you knew it was going on and kept your mouth shut, to me you were in on it. And I do believe every single one of them knew about it. It would be a tough spot to be in, but everybody has a responsibility to try to stop it. Wasn't it McCann who did speak up and got nowhere with it? I still think you have to stop it or you're as responsible as everybody else. Maybe you do get an asterisk for trying, but still......
If there is a strong enough culture to embolden cheating to that degree, one person's speaking up is not likely to go anywhere with it. Especially when the team is having great success This is not any excuse but its just the mindset of how people behave in the group and sports teams have a culture that you always stand up for the group and not rock the boat. Also young impressionable players are generally not going to rock the boat In the old days some coaches at the HS level could be beating the crap out of a kid or ran them to dehydration and the mindset was - you do not bad mouth the coach. Just using that as an example. One guy does not want to be labeled as the clubhouse troublemaker. The only time I would support a championship taken away is if its something like a criminal conspiracy with the intention of causing deliberate injury or some kind of crime to an opponent - that is justification to me to take the trophy away. This is Astros thing is just not enough for me to go that far at this time. Now, if this happens again well, we can think about it. Rest assured its not likely to happen unless the manager, coaches and players are total fools.
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 4, 2020 12:37:51 GMT -5
I don't know, if it was my team I would not be proud that we won by cheating in such a big way. I'd understand the championship being taken away. I'd be really mad, but I'd be mad at the team for what they did.
In my opinion there's no one who wasn't in on it--if you knew it was going on and kept your mouth shut, to me you were in on it. And I do believe every single one of them knew about it. It would be a tough spot to be in, but everybody has a responsibility to try to stop it. Wasn't it McCann who did speak up and got nowhere with it? I still think you have to stop it or you're as responsible as everybody else. Maybe you do get an asterisk for trying, but still......
If there is a strong enough culture to embolden cheating to that degree, one person's speaking up is not likely to go anywhere with it. Especially when the team is having great success This is not any excuse but its just the mindset of how people behave in the group and sports teams have a culture that you always stand up for the group and not rock the boat. Also young impressionable players are generally not going to rock the boat In the old days some coaches at the HS level could be beating the crap out of a kid or ran them to dehydration and the mindset was - you do not bad mouth the coach. Just using that as an example. One guy does not want to be labeled as the clubhouse troublemaker. The only time I would support a championship taken away is if its something like a criminal conspiracy with the intention of causing deliberate injury or some kind of crime to an opponent - that is justification to me to take the trophy away. This is Astros thing is just not enough for me to go that far at this time. Now, if this happens again well, we can think about it. Rest assured its not likely to happen unless the manager, coaches and players are total fools. I totally agree with the first half of your post, and I would go as far as to say I'm not sure I would go against the grain myself if I was involved in something like that, because it's human nature not to--I can see myself saying something to somebody, or several people, but if I got complete resistance I'd probably keep my mouth shut too. Having admitted that, I can also say that beyond a shadow of a doubt if that all happened to me I would have been out in the public thirty seconds after it became public knowledge apologizing and openly saying I/we deserve any and all punishments, including taking the trophy away.
I am not sure there's going to be much of a change now in whatever cheating teams are doing, the precedent is set now that you can basically get away with it--there's going to be a scapegoat or two take the hit and everything will be ok, so why not take the risk?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 15:41:32 GMT -5
Having admitted that, I can also say that beyond a shadow of a doubt if that all happened to me I would have been out in the public thirty seconds after it became public knowledge apologizing and openly saying I/we deserve any and all punishments, including taking the trophy away. Had the Astros as a group been more apologetic from the beginning perhaps the public consternation would not have been as great. Some guys (a few) have been stand up guys. Some key players acted like they were either in denial or that they did nothing wrong. Lets face it, early denial is what gets you in most trouble. Why do you think some (myself included) have such a disregard for Pete Rose? That he has a gambling problem, to me no but that he repeatedly denied it for 15 years. And he bet on his own team. Perpetual denial is what got Coppy banned for life, something went on behind closed doors with Manfred for him to take that kind of action. I know, both of the other incidents are separate from the original conversation but the principle is that you lose more in the public eye with coverup and might even stand to get some measure of forgiveness when one comes out and fesses up. We do disagree with the idea that the championship should or should not be taken away. That is fine, I understand why you feel that way - man I hope we can get half a season done in 2020. Any less than a half yr might as well not be played
|
|
|
Post by Fumbduckery on Apr 4, 2020 16:15:30 GMT -5
My biggest reason for taking the championship away is precedent. Precedent is always so important, it's what you establish with your kids when they are two years old. Risk versus reward and consequences. Letting adults get away with such a major thing is such a bad precedent.
And I always hated Pete Rose, even before ended Ray Fosse's career in a meaningless All Star game and before all the gambling stuff.
I love players who play hard, but the All Star game thing was nonsense--yes, every single player could go out there and play like that if they wanted to in an All Star game, that's not what the game is about. That was a horsehollins play.
|
|
hokiedan
AA prospect
Hokie - Anthropomorphic turkey-like bird
Posts: 1,384
Likes: 245
|
Post by hokiedan on Apr 6, 2020 18:03:14 GMT -5
Al Kaline dead at 85
|
|