jryanw
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Post by jryanw on Nov 26, 2018 21:47:03 GMT -5
What if we trade Camargo and Donaldson flops or gets hurt and Riley isn't ready this year, or Riley ends up not cutting it.
Then instead of three 3B we have zero.
I'm way more concerned about Donaldson staying healthy than I am about his production. If he's healthy then I do believe he'll produce. But him staying healthy is a pretty big if to me, and if we give up a very solid 3B in the process it's kind of doubling down on what would be a bad move if Donaldson ends up injured.
What if half our team got hurt? Come on man. This is a very good deal. We have money to burn and it leaves us flexibility for next year. I could see us making a similar high dollar 1 year prove it deal for Cutch or Brantley. Then making a trade for a guy like klubler. Maybe something like Wright, allard, Camargo and Teheran. We are going for it fellas. This is pretty exciting!
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akod
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Post by akod on Nov 26, 2018 21:56:45 GMT -5
Give me a gamble over a ticking time bomb.
I’d overpay for short term deals any chance we get. The league is trending younger for star position players- Betts, Lindor, Bregman, Ramirez, yelich, trout, Machado, Harper, Baez, Arenado, etc. Yet players getting paid are typically hitting free agency from the 28-30 range. Building with a steady stream of prospects and short term deals where possible for free agents would be ideal as we build around Acuna.
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akod
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Post by akod on Nov 26, 2018 22:03:38 GMT -5
I personally want to keep Camargo and since AA wants depth it would be wise. He can play nearly every day in a Baez role which makes him extremely valuable. Donaldson goes down and Riley is ready then keep Camargo in the same role, Riley isn’t ready then Camargo moves to 3rd.
I’d like to find another starter without including either at the moment.
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Post by smurfbate on Nov 26, 2018 22:03:53 GMT -5
Meh, I dont much care for this signing either. 3rd base wasnt an area of need in my mind and from the looks of it Camargo is going to be turned into a Marwin Gonzalez type super utility player. Are we sure he can play the outfield even? Or are the Braves possibly over reacting to bench issues by using Camargo off of it?
Hope Donaldson can stay healthy and play 140 games but I'm not very optimistic there. Would have much rather seen 23 million spent elsewhere. That's alot of money to spend on a gamble when the team has quite a few needs like SP, C, Bullpen. Catcher apparently is being punted on so joy.
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jryanw
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Post by jryanw on Nov 26, 2018 22:06:55 GMT -5
Give me a gamble over a ticking time bomb. I’d overpay for short term deals any chance we get. The league is trending younger for star position players- Betts, Lindor, Bregman, Ramirez, yelich, trout, Machado, Harper, Baez, Arenado, etc. Yet players getting paid are typically hitting free agency from the 28-30 range. Building with a steady stream of prospects and short term deals where possible for free agents would be ideal as we build around Acuna. I agree, though I am still onboard the Harper train. He's very young and would be worth the $. Especially if we give him an opt out after year 4 and 5. We would essentially be paying for just his prime. There is very little chance he wouldn't opt out. That being said, I think this deal probably kills our shot at Harper. For us to land him it was going to have to be a deal with big $ on the front end. AA said we have about 65 mil in space though we may not use it all. That puts us at 40 mil left. We need about 10 mil for bullpen help and if we trade for an ace(Kluber, Carrasco, Degrom, etc) they will likely eat up another 10-15 mil. That gives us 15-20 mil left for a LF.
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jryanw
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Post by jryanw on Nov 26, 2018 22:13:28 GMT -5
Meh, I dont much care for this signing either. 3rd base wasnt an area of need in my mind and from the looks of it Camargo is going to be turned into a Marwin Gonzalez type super utility player. Are we sure he can play the outfield even? Or are the Braves possibly over reacting to bench issues by using Camargo off of it? Hope Donaldson can stay healthy and play 140 games but I'm not very optimistic there. Would have much rather seen 23 million spent elsewhere. That's alot of money to spend on a gamble when the team has quite a few needs like SP, C, Bullpen. Catcher apparently is being punted on so joy. SP will likely either be handled internally or through a trade either way it won't cost us more than 15 mil. We really only need one bullpen arm, a closer, and that could be had for anywhere from 5 mil to 15 mil. I fully expect us to got toward the middle. Maybe a guy like Familia or Robertson for 10-12 mil per year. This money doesn't really hurt us at all.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 26, 2018 22:14:32 GMT -5
Give me a gamble over a ticking time bomb. I’d overpay for short term deals any chance we get. The league is trending younger for star position players- Betts, Lindor, Bregman, Ramirez, yelich, trout, Machado, Harper, Baez, Arenado, etc. Yet players getting paid are typically hitting free agency from the 28-30 range. Building with a steady stream of prospects and short term deals where possible for free agents would be ideal as we build around Acuna. The things that I would not like about this are:
a) moving Camargo then have Donaldson and Riley fall through--if we hang onto both Camargo and Riley, I would feel better about this
b) if Camargo gets 50 AB's in April and May or gets 300 for the season. If he's going to be a utility player then he needs to play damn near every day, because he was one of our best and most consistent players in 2017. Having a guy like that lose his spot is something I'm not excited about. If he gets plenty of playing time in the OF, that would make this easier to stomach.
c) if Dansby is hitting .202 on June 1st and still starting every day at SS, I'm not going to be happy at all. Especially if Camargo is starting other places just 2-3 times per week.
I do agree with the idea of mixing in veterans on short term deals, but they have to be fairly productive or it's useless. If Donaldson is injured, it doesn't do us any good.
Out of curiosity, what is the ticking time bomb in reference to? I'm drawing a blank on that one.
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Post by smurfbate on Nov 26, 2018 22:22:22 GMT -5
Meh, I dont much care for this signing either. 3rd base wasnt an area of need in my mind and from the looks of it Camargo is going to be turned into a Marwin Gonzalez type super utility player. Are we sure he can play the outfield even? Or are the Braves possibly over reacting to bench issues by using Camargo off of it? Hope Donaldson can stay healthy and play 140 games but I'm not very optimistic there. Would have much rather seen 23 million spent elsewhere. That's alot of money to spend on a gamble when the team has quite a few needs like SP, C, Bullpen. Catcher apparently is being punted on so joy. SP will likely either be handled internally or through a trade either way it won't cost us more than 15 mil. We really only need one bullpen arm, a closer, and that could be had for anywhere from 5 mil to 15 mil. I fully expect us to got toward the middle. Maybe a guy like Familia or Robertson for 10-12 mil per year. This money doesn't really hurt us at all. I'd like more than 1 bullpen arm but that's me.
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akod
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Post by akod on Nov 27, 2018 0:03:26 GMT -5
Give me a gamble over a ticking time bomb. I’d overpay for short term deals any chance we get. The league is trending younger for star position players- Betts, Lindor, Bregman, Ramirez, yelich, trout, Machado, Harper, Baez, Arenado, etc. Yet players getting paid are typically hitting free agency from the 28-30 range. Building with a steady stream of prospects and short term deals where possible for free agents would be ideal as we build around Acuna. The things that I would not like about this are:
a) moving Camargo then have Donaldson and Riley fall through--if we hang onto both Camargo and Riley, I would feel better about this
b) if Camargo gets 50 AB's in April and May or gets 300 for the season. If he's going to be a utility player then he needs to play damn near every day, because he was one of our best and most consistent players in 2017. Having a guy like that lose his spot is something I'm not excited about. If he gets plenty of playing time in the OF, that would make this easier to stomach.
c) if Dansby is hitting .202 on June 1st and still starting every day at SS, I'm not going to be happy at all. Especially if Camargo is starting other places just 2-3 times per week.
I do agree with the idea of mixing in veterans on short term deals, but they have to be fairly productive or it's useless. If Donaldson is injured, it doesn't do us any good.
Out of curiosity, what is the ticking time bomb in reference to? I'm drawing a blank on that one.
Just a reference to any long term deal where you are paying for the first couple of years of production only to have the payroll held hostage, along with a roster spot (likely a starting spot too that isn’t justified thus further hampering the team). Try to clear that contract and expect to actually give up talent. Take Cano for example, what would we have to get in return to take on his 5 year 120 mil contract? Would Haniger be enough? I’d want more to cut out 24 mil a year from our payroll for the next 5 years. An early rebuild team will take less proven talent and more prospects but you get the point. What a crap position to be in. I had a hard enough time waiting out our much smaller deals. Basically all my rambling is getting to one point- long term financial flexibility. The Donaldson deal fits, meanwhile Corbin and Pollack will very likely have their fan bases cursing their existence in years 4 and 5 (seen reports of 5 years for Pollack). Ideally Camargo looks great, Riley shows he’s ready, and Pache/Waters/Contreras continue to develop. Then we can look at allocating funds to paying for Acuna and Albies. Of course it’s possible none of those guys takes the appropriate steps and we are stuck looking for answers in free agency and trades a year from now. At least we have options going this route as the reality likely lies in between.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 27, 2018 0:45:35 GMT -5
The things that I would not like about this are:
a) moving Camargo then have Donaldson and Riley fall through--if we hang onto both Camargo and Riley, I would feel better about this
b) if Camargo gets 50 AB's in April and May or gets 300 for the season. If he's going to be a utility player then he needs to play damn near every day, because he was one of our best and most consistent players in 2017. Having a guy like that lose his spot is something I'm not excited about. If he gets plenty of playing time in the OF, that would make this easier to stomach.
c) if Dansby is hitting .202 on June 1st and still starting every day at SS, I'm not going to be happy at all. Especially if Camargo is starting other places just 2-3 times per week.
I do agree with the idea of mixing in veterans on short term deals, but they have to be fairly productive or it's useless. If Donaldson is injured, it doesn't do us any good.
Out of curiosity, what is the ticking time bomb in reference to? I'm drawing a blank on that one.
Just a reference to any long term deal where you are paying for the first couple of years of production only to have the payroll held hostage, along with a roster spot (likely a starting spot too that isn’t justified thus further hampering the team). Try to clear that contract and expect to actually give up talent. Take Cano for example, what would we have to get in return to take on his 5 year 120 mil contract? Would Haniger be enough? I’d want more to cut out 24 mil a year from our payroll for the next 5 years. An early rebuild team will take less proven talent and more prospects but you get the point. What a crap position to be in. I had a hard enough time waiting out our much smaller deals. Basically all my rambling is getting to one point- long term financial flexibility. The Donaldson deal fits, meanwhile Corbin and Pollack will very likely have their fan bases cursing their existence in years 4 and 5 (seen reports of 5 years for Pollack). Ideally Camargo looks great, Riley shows he’s ready, and Pache/Waters/Contreras continue to develop. Then we can look at allocating funds to paying for Acuna and Albies. Of course it’s possible none of those guys takes the appropriate steps and we are stuck looking for answers in free agency and trades a year from now. At least we have options going this route as the reality likely lies in between. Ok, I gotcha on the time bomb thing, and I agree.
We didn't need a third baseman, but we do need a RH bat. I was hoping Riley would be that this year, but we really have no idea if that will come true or not. If it was up to me I would have gambled on Riley, knowing as well that Camargo could easily hit 20+ HR's as well, and I would have allocated this money elsewhere. In large part to the injury possibility with Donaldson. If we keep both Camargo and Riley I'm more willing to take the Donaldson injury risk, I would just hate to move either one of them. Ideally to me we shouldn't. We're only going to have Donaldson for one year, so we need a 3B we can count on after this season.
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Post by papabrave on Nov 27, 2018 8:49:09 GMT -5
What if we trade Camargo and Donaldson flops or gets hurt and Riley isn't ready this year, or Riley ends up not cutting it.
Then instead of three 3B we have zero.
I'm way more concerned about Donaldson staying healthy than I am about his production. If he's healthy then I do believe he'll produce. But him staying healthy is a pretty big if to me, and if we give up a very solid 3B in the process it's kind of doubling down on what would be a bad move if Donaldson ends up injured.
What if we traded Ender, Camargo,Newcomb and another young stud arm in lower levels for Bryant? Bryant could be our left fielder and if Donaldson goes down and Riley doesnt seize the opportunity, we shift Bryant back to 3rd and hopefully Waters surprises and is looking good . that also covers us after this year after Donaldson is gone. Cubs LOVE Ender. Camargo could play 3rd for Cubs at half the cost. Newcomb would slot right in as a top 3 starter for them. The Young arm, theres so many we have that they could choose from.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Nov 27, 2018 9:19:30 GMT -5
What if we trade Camargo and Donaldson flops or gets hurt and Riley isn't ready this year, or Riley ends up not cutting it.
Then instead of three 3B we have zero.
I'm way more concerned about Donaldson staying healthy than I am about his production. If he's healthy then I do believe he'll produce. But him staying healthy is a pretty big if to me, and if we give up a very solid 3B in the process it's kind of doubling down on what would be a bad move if Donaldson ends up injured.
One option and the one I prefer for Camargo is to hold on to him. We can use him to spell JD at third therefore reducing the injury risk, and to have him available as super-sub and an insurance policy if Dansby continues to struggle at SS. Would you feel better about the deal if that is what we do? Right handed power was a definite need and generally all moves like giving up prospects in trades or signing someone carry some degree of risk with them. What if we traded a way the next Kershaw to find RH power for 2 years? Available right handed power is a very limited commodity. I wanted to get JTR, but that price is rumored to be way steep. Next I wanted Grandal, but his signing is tied to a draft slot if I am not mistaken and it is rumored he is looking for something like 4 years at over $60m on top of losing a draft pick. I get the injury concern, but if keep Camargo we mitigate that.
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akod
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Post by akod on Nov 27, 2018 9:41:05 GMT -5
What if we trade Camargo and Donaldson flops or gets hurt and Riley isn't ready this year, or Riley ends up not cutting it.
Then instead of three 3B we have zero.
I'm way more concerned about Donaldson staying healthy than I am about his production. If he's healthy then I do believe he'll produce. But him staying healthy is a pretty big if to me, and if we give up a very solid 3B in the process it's kind of doubling down on what would be a bad move if Donaldson ends up injured.
What if we traded Ender, Camargo,Newcomb and another young stud arm in lower levels for Bryant? Bryant could be our left fielder and if Donaldson goes down and Riley doesnt seize the opportunity, we shift Bryant back to 3rd and hopefully Waters surprises and is looking good . that also covers us after this year after Donaldson is gone. Cubs LOVE Ender. Camargo could play 3rd for Cubs at half the cost. Newcomb would slot right in as a top 3 starter for them. The Young arm, theres so many we have that they could choose from. I’d love Bryant and asked what it would take in another tread. However we have to wonder if they are just as high on Ender after his offensive output this season. Almora is still behind offensively in comparison but has that gap been bridged enough for them to value Ender less? Regardless I had the same feelings on flexibility of positions with Bryant though he doesn’t completely fit our emphasis on defense. If he were to be had we are clearly saying a 3 year window has opened. I’m ok with this if we do not gut the cheap controllable talent needed beyond this window. Otherwise we would just be wasting Acuna and Albies the way we have Freeman. It’s a tricky situation because a move for Bryant almost certainly means a move for Bum, Klubear, or another high end option that could clear the farm if not careful. I’m just overly afraid of having no assets in the future and being stuck trying to resign an aging Freeman or Bryant to contracts that (as stated above) become ticking time bombs. Consolidating already proven major league talent is ideal.
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Post by winthorp on Nov 27, 2018 9:45:41 GMT -5
"When healthy."
$23M
I don't like the odds on that gamble.
Totally agree, Uckery. For starters, I'll be happy if Donaldson is able to play opening day. Way too much money for an "if he stays healthy" player. Don't like the gamble but I'll be rooting for him to return to his MVP year form.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Nov 27, 2018 9:48:22 GMT -5
What if we trade Camargo and Donaldson flops or gets hurt and Riley isn't ready this year, or Riley ends up not cutting it.
Then instead of three 3B we have zero.
I'm way more concerned about Donaldson staying healthy than I am about his production. If he's healthy then I do believe he'll produce. But him staying healthy is a pretty big if to me, and if we give up a very solid 3B in the process it's kind of doubling down on what would be a bad move if Donaldson ends up injured.
One option and the one I prefer for Camargo is to hold on to him. We can use him to spell JD at third therefore reducing the injury risk, and to have him available as super-sub and an insurance policy if Dansby continues to struggle at SS. Would you feel better about the deal if that is what we do? Right handed power was a definite need and generally all moves like giving up prospects in trades or signing someone carry some degree of risk with them. What if we traded a way the next Kershaw to find RH power for 2 years? Available right handed power is a very limited commodity. I wanted to get JTR, but that price is rumored to be way steep. Next I wanted Grandal, but his signing is tied to a draft slot if I am not mistaken and it is rumored he is looking for something like 4 years at over $60m on top of losing a draft pick. I get the injury concern, but if keep Camargo we mitigate that. Definitely. I’ve said that several times in this tread. If we don’t move Camargo or Riley then this Donaldson thing is much easier for me to stomach. And however it’s done, Camargo needs to get at least 500 ABs, he was one of our best and most consistent players. If he gets 300 or fewer ABs I won’t like it, especially if Dansby is being Dansby and still playing every day.
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