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Post by bourjosgeorge on Oct 27, 2020 23:40:37 GMT -5
OMG, Snell being pulled in the bottom of the 6th after 73 pitches. Barnes just got a one out single, the Dodgers second hit of the game. Betts coming up who has struggled terribly against lefties in the post season and all season long for that matter....the Rays manager just Snitkered us. Snell shaking his head, can't believe he's being pulled. He's had the hitters looking terrible all night. That has to be the number one, uno, top of the list, absolutely the stupidest move that I have ever seen a manager make. It's even worse than Freddy whateverhislastnamewas,,, not using Craig Kimbrel to close that game against the Giants. I reckon that Rays manager had temporary loss of brain function.
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carl
Drafted
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Post by carl on Oct 27, 2020 23:59:01 GMT -5
OMG, Snell being pulled in the bottom of the 6th after 73 pitches. Barnes just got a one out single, the Dodgers second hit of the game. Betts coming up who has struggled terribly against lefties in the post season and all season long for that matter....the Rays manager just Snitkered us. Snell shaking his head, can't believe he's being pulled. He's had the hitters looking terrible all night. That has to be the number one, uno, top of the list, absolutely the stupidest move that I have ever seen a manager make. It's even worse than Freddy whateverhislastnamewas,,, not using Craig Kimbrel to close that game against the Giants. I reckon that Rays manager had temporary loss of brain function. This belief that you need to pull the pitcher before the 3rd time through the lineup is getting to be stupid. The common reasoning is that batters make adjustment after seeing the pitcher twice. Have pitchers suddeningly become incapable in making adjustments to the batters all of a sudden?? To me what makes this trend seem dumb is the fact that they keep paying Starting pitchers more and more money. I don't blame the players and the agents on this front, if somebody is stupid enough to hand them that kind of money, then the fault is on them. In about 10 year times we went from Pitchers going 220-240 innings, to suddenly going 180-200 innings. The salaries though for top pitchers in that span went from mid 20s, to approaching mid 30 million. So they have received a 33 percent pay increase for doing a 15% decrease in workload. I like to see most of us go to our boss and say I should get a pay increase on my salary, but I should only work 32-35 hours instead of 40 plus. Wonder how many us would be laughed at for that demand. It used to be the 4th and 5th starters were guys who may not been at the top, but you could trust they would pitcher 5-7 innings each game. Now if they get you to thru 5, its consider an excellent job. The reasoning for the reduced work load? TO keep them healthy..... well its funny that every starting pitcher almost seems required to have 1 Tommy John surgery in their first 5 years in the league. I beleive it was Smoltz who i heard said it, and I have also heard Nolan Ryan mention it, is the pitchers no long do long tossing as part of their regular regiment among other things. There is more emphasis on strength training and fast muscle twitches, which values explosiveness instead of endurance. Which would explain why more and more pitchers are throwing in the range of 100 mph.
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Post by keystone61 on Oct 28, 2020 5:52:54 GMT -5
Done.
New World Series Record 27 K's in one game between the two teams and the Dodgers didn't even bat in the bottom of the 9th.
Modern day baseball.
I was willing to give full credit to whoever won the series this year, but since it ended up being the Dodgers.......
TAINTED!!!
ASTERISK!!!
It was always church league to me. It was 37% of a season no matter how you slice it. It was fun.........the Braves were a blast to watch, but it always has been and always will be an asterisk. There's just no way around it.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Oct 28, 2020 7:01:59 GMT -5
I don't think it was church league. Once it got started it was just baseball to me. MLB ball, MLB players; and the shortened season didn't bother me.
Carl noted the stupidity of the 3rd time through the order thing, but that exists because the numbers say it exists. I don't know what Snell's numbers say but in general the batting average goes way up the 3rd time the batters see a pitcher.
That being said; Pulling Snell seemed like a bad move with the numbers Betts had and with how Snell had done against that part of the order.
Anyway I am proud to say I didn't watch one minute of it. Screw the Dodgers. I thought the Braves could beat the Rays and I thought the Dodgers would as well. Apparently the WS this year was Braves vs LA and we pulled a Falcons.
...but that's okay because our manager was "over it" 5 minutes after it happened.
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Post by PABraveFan on Oct 28, 2020 8:59:46 GMT -5
The move by Cash reminded me of when Gabe Classless Dick pulled Aaron Nola after 5.1 IP, 68 pitches, of 3 hit ball with a 5-0 lead at the beginning of the 2018 season. The Braves jumped on 5 Phillies pitchers went on to win that one 8-5. www.inquirer.com/philly/sports/phillies/phillies-braves-aaron-nola-gabe-Classless Dick-recap-score-opening-day-bullpen-nick-markakis-20180329.html#:~:text=ATLANTA%20%E2%80%94%20Gabe%20Kapler%20left%20the,pitcher%20threw%20just%2068%20pitches.&text=He%20removed%20Nola%20because%20he,relievers%20could%20finish%20the%20game.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Oct 28, 2020 9:14:46 GMT -5
I don't think it was church league. Once it got started it was just baseball to me. MLB ball, MLB players; and the shortened season didn't bother me. Carl noted the stupidity of the 3rd time through the order thing, but that exists because the numbers say it exists. I don't know what Snell's numbers say but in general the batting average goes way up the 3rd time the batters see a pitcher. That being said; Pulling Snell seemed like a bad move with the numbers Betts had and with how Snell had done against that part of the order. Anyway I am proud to say I didn't watch one minute of it. Screw the Dodgers. I thought the Braves could beat the Rays and I thought the Dodgers would as well. Apparently the WS this year was Braves vs LA and we pulled a Falcons. ...but that's okay because our manager was "over it" 5 minutes after it happened. I would like to see what the numbers were like the third time thru the order back in the good old days. It does seem to me pitchers used to be better at adjusting during games, but that was back when they knew how to actually pitch.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Oct 28, 2020 11:26:31 GMT -5
I don't think it was church league. Once it got started it was just baseball to me. MLB ball, MLB players; and the shortened season didn't bother me. Carl noted the stupidity of the 3rd time through the order thing, but that exists because the numbers say it exists. I don't know what Snell's numbers say but in general the batting average goes way up the 3rd time the batters see a pitcher. That being said; Pulling Snell seemed like a bad move with the numbers Betts had and with how Snell had done against that part of the order. Anyway I am proud to say I didn't watch one minute of it. Screw the Dodgers. I thought the Braves could beat the Rays and I thought the Dodgers would as well. Apparently the WS this year was Braves vs LA and we pulled a Falcons. ...but that's okay because our manager was "over it" 5 minutes after it happened. I would like to see what the numbers were like the third time thru the order back in the good old days. It does seem to me pitchers used to be better at adjusting during games, but that was back when they knew how to actually pitch. I would bet they got a little worse, but not like today. Pitchers back in the day used different velocity change a lot better so it made it like they had 15 different pitches instead of 3-5. Third time through the order and they could still throw hitters off much better. I like analytics but you can't let it dominate the decision process. Snell was rolling, and the 3rd time through the order thing is only 1 piece of information against many more that should have been considered.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Oct 28, 2020 13:08:20 GMT -5
Yeah Snell had the hitters twisted into pretzels and had only thrown 63 pitches, you just can’t mess with that. Funny thing is, right when Barnes got that hit I thought damn, Snell needs a short inning here and if can do that he could go two more innings......and boom here comes Cash Snitkering out of the dugout. Wat? They’re going to be talking about his ass for 44 years now.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Oct 28, 2020 17:20:51 GMT -5
My favorite part of this was Turner being removed from the game due to testing positive for COVID...
.... in the 6th inning...
....... after the Dodgers had taken the lead
Any doubt here that had they still been behind that he wouldn't have found out about until after the game.. and had they lost I bet he might not have found out about until they took the lead in game 7 or after that game was over.
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carl
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Post by carl on Oct 28, 2020 19:47:47 GMT -5
I would like to see what the numbers were like the third time thru the order back in the good old days. It does seem to me pitchers used to be better at adjusting during games, but that was back when they knew how to actually pitch. I would bet they got a little worse, but not like today. Pitchers back in the day used different velocity change a lot better so it made it like they had 15 different pitches instead of 3-5. Third time through the order and they could still throw hitters off much better. I like analytics but you can't let it dominate the decision process. Snell was rolling, and the 3rd time through the order thing is only 1 piece of information against many more that should have been considered. I would imagine like most numbers the 3rd time around is more skewed by the more average pitchers. Glavine and Maddux were traditional easier to hit the first time around the order, and i think playing off of Hart's theory, they needed a few pitches to get in a rhythm and they were easier to hit because they couldn't just overpower you until they got zeroed in. If you go with the analytics, thats fine, but then why are you paying these guys so much more for pitching less. To me some analytics are fine, like the OPS, the BAA against certain pitches, etc. The numbers I most disagree with are Fielding analytics. So much of that is based on an opinion IMO. Could a player not get to the ball because of his range, or was because he was badly placed in a shift. Did a player get to the ball because of his range, or they got there because of being well positioned, or was it because of quick reaction to how the ball came off the bat? I haven't looked this year, but most years I see Freddie's Defense War being even or possibly negative, and anyone that watches him among other 1Bs can see that he is one of the better Fielding ones. Analytics can cause you to overload yourself with information. As useful as it can be, there is a point you got to let your eyes do the make the final decision.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Oct 28, 2020 20:25:43 GMT -5
For people who want to blast the Cash decision because of "analytics", check this out beginning around the 1:50 mark.
Seems the analytics pointed to keeping Snell in the game.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Oct 28, 2020 20:49:58 GMT -5
For people who want to blast the Cash decision because of "analytics", check this out beginning around the 1:50 mark. Seems the analytics pointed to keeping Snell in the game. Part of the situation there that I hadn't even mentioned was that Anderson had been struggling, so it made even less sense to bring him in. I still don't know much about their pen, but it seems like there should have been a better choice if they were going to go to someone else. But Snell was obviously the guy because he was owning the Dodgers hitters. I erroneously said he had thrown 63 pitches, it turns out it was 73. But despite an apparent drop in speed (who knows how random those fastballs were that Jomboy showed), I would have left him in there until he got a couple of balls hit hard. If that meant giving up a couple runs, I would have rather lost that way.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Oct 28, 2020 20:52:49 GMT -5
I would bet they got a little worse, but not like today. Pitchers back in the day used different velocity change a lot better so it made it like they had 15 different pitches instead of 3-5. Third time through the order and they could still throw hitters off much better. I like analytics but you can't let it dominate the decision process. Snell was rolling, and the 3rd time through the order thing is only 1 piece of information against many more that should have been considered. I would imagine like most numbers the 3rd time around is more skewed by the more average pitchers. Glavine and Maddux were traditional easier to hit the first time around the order, and i think playing off of Hart's theory, they needed a few pitches to get in a rhythm and they were easier to hit because they couldn't just overpower you until they got zeroed in. If you go with the analytics, thats fine, but then why are you paying these guys so much more for pitching less. To me some analytics are fine, like the OPS, the BAA against certain pitches, etc. The numbers I most disagree with are Fielding analytics. So much of that is based on an opinion IMO. Could a player not get to the ball because of his range, or was because he was badly placed in a shift. Did a player get to the ball because of his range, or they got there because of being well positioned, or was it because of quick reaction to how the ball came off the bat? I haven't looked this year, but most years I see Freddie's Defense War being even or possibly negative, and anyone that watches him among other 1Bs can see that he is one of the better Fielding ones. Analytics can cause you to overload yourself with information. As useful as it can be, there is a point you got to let your eyes do the make the final decision. I think now they are more scientific with defensive metrics because they can apparently track the exact number of feet an OFer covered, the speed he did it at, and go by exit velocity and launch angle to determine everything. I don't think it's done just by eyesight like it was in the beginning. That being said, I still don't put a lot of faith in advanced defensive stats yet. It's certainly not as certain as something like OPS.
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maverick86
Low A Farmhand
2021 World Series Champs
Posts: 878
Likes: 98
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Post by maverick86 on Oct 29, 2020 14:54:30 GMT -5
Just imagine Cox pulling Glavine w a 1 hitter.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Oct 29, 2020 18:34:19 GMT -5
Just imagine Cox pulling Glavine w a 1 hitter. We lived through Frego... we saw plenty!
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