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Post by jahgentle on Mar 18, 2018 0:53:31 GMT -5
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 18, 2018 2:07:13 GMT -5
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Mar 18, 2018 5:36:08 GMT -5
do you take the Bible literally? I don’t really give taking it literally all that much fault. Archaeology more and more is proving the Bible correct as a historical record, so there’s that... Was the Earth created in 7 days.... the Bible states that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years, so does a day in the creation story have the same meaning I have regarding a day? The Bible is the word of God, and Jesus is noted as being the word... then in the NT, it says that Jesus always taught using allegory and metaphor, so does that mean the Bible (the word) is allegory and metaphor? The whole debate about the Bible being completely literal comes down to the fact that if you say it’s not, the next step can be that people pick and choose what parts to believe and what parts not to believe. When you start doing that, then you basically start creating your own theology. That line of thinking though... this need to claim it has to be literal or the view that it isn’t.. the importance of those stances is for the weak minded Christian or the agnostic. I don’t find that line in the sand one that has to be drawn. I never make the leap to picking and choosing what parts to “believe” or not to believe because of doubts about the literal nature of the work. See... it doesn’t matter if it is 100% literal or not as the lessons being taught remain unchanged either way. The biggest issue with the need to claim it’s literal nature comes from the resurrection of Christ. Christianity hinges on that being true, and I do believe it is true... be it physical or spiritual. Any student of writing will tell there are contextual clues regarding metaphor, and while many Bible stories are up for debate, as the NT is written there is no metaphor here. Many scoff at the idea of physical resurrection but the message of Christ being the sacrifice and a resurrection of your soul in a spiritual realm remains the exact same. Plus I would note that it is also said that God’s realm is spiritual in nature. So I personally don’t think it about it all that much and my advice to anyone struggling with Christianity because of not taking the Bible literally is that it doesn’t matter if it’s 100% literal or not. You can read the Bible and discern where documentation of fact is written and where stories are told. The ambiguous nature of stories can be debated, but they are almost always teaching moments and the lesson is unchanged regardless.
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 18, 2018 6:49:34 GMT -5
Now that is one great answer to a very vague question I threw up there. I assumed you would take it in the right spirit and know what I was getting at and you did. Thank you. I don't think there is any point you made there that I would or could debate. I have found over the years I can take a few pages out of Genesis alone like the Adam and Eve story and look at it thousand different ways and none of those methods contradict each other. Often things can be a metaphor and literal at the same time and have infinite meaning or keep taking on deeper meanings the more time passes and the more you think about them.
The reason I asked was because I've had some very disappointing conversations with Christians over the years because as far as I could tell they didn't seem to believe it all that much. Of course that's been in my own limited personal experiences, people can believe what they want and I'm certainly not judging and or putting these individuals down. I just mean in terms of literal conversation like we might talk about baseball ...well it's been a bit of a let down in that they just really didn't seem to I dunno really believe much of anything. I got the impression they were somewhat embarrassed by it all and were doing as much to talk it away as much as any atheist would while offering very little alternative thought. What these people were saying or seemed to be saying to me is that everything is a metaphor for something they don't quite know what. Earth in 6 days? Nah, not really...gap theory and/or evolution was were it was at.
Noah's Ark....don't be ridiculous...you cant put on those animals on a boat so therefore it must be a ...a metaphor...for something. Then they has been evidence of minor floods in that area so probably it was just some guy with a raft and his cats.
Moses and The Pharaoh...well probably what happened was Aaron threw some red kool aid in the water and they thought it was blood...or a metaphor for something
Parting of the Red Sea?? well if you look in that area you can actually find reeds that are of a reddish nature so it probably wasn't the sea that was parting but the reeds they passed though and the story is exaggerated.
Wipe out the Canaanites! God would never do command that....so metaphor for something.
and on and on until they have explained that every single story in the Bible is really nothing but a 'metaphor for something" I've talked to many Priests, Ministers, Pastors and Christians layman who are all in the habit of doing this
again, they are free to think/believe what they want and were all good people who I liked but I was just always left with the impression of, 'why do they even bother?"
As far as the archaeological evidence is concerned you are right and it's everywhere if a person looks but mainstream science is very political and Luciferian at the top. so, so much has been covered up. Many of these same stories are found all over the world as have the evidence.270 some global flood stories world wide from all different countries and cultures. Take a look at some old Native mythology and you will find the stories as well as picture evidence of things like Nephilim. Actually these skeletal remains were common occurrence and printed in most major newspapers up until the age and indoctrination of evolution on the masses then they disappeared suddenly.
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 18, 2018 6:54:45 GMT -5
"The biggest issue with the need to claim it’s literal nature comes from the resurrection of Christ. Christianity hinges
on that being true, and I do believe it is true... be it physical
or spiritual."
I need to think about that one as I am not sure it would make that much difference for me.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Mar 18, 2018 9:15:24 GMT -5
Don’t br mistaken... God most certainly would wipe out the Canaanites.
You have to understand when and what the Old Testamant is.
All the insane laws that no one could ever follow... That was done to show that mankind could never live up to God’s standards.
Hence the need for redemption through Christ.
An angry vengeful God? Yep... That is a God with sovereignty over a fallen and wicked creation. The examples of that God are mankind getting what it deserved..
Hence the need for the intervention of the spirit of Christ on man’s behalf.
The true wickedness of that world... This was a time before the presence of the Holy spirit... the wickedness of the world at that time would put outs today to shame.
Plus when people demand to understand why God would do that, they are not grasping that most of things are things we do to ourselves. It’s not God.
When they don’t understand why God would allow this or that, what they don’t grasp is they are seeing things and understanding things from their human perspective. God understands things from an all-knowing sovereign Godly perspective. We are not capable of seeing things or understanding things that way. If we could, we could answer thise questions but these are things beyond our ability..
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 18, 2018 10:34:46 GMT -5
Great post man, seriously love this stuff.
I was just repeating what I have heard others say and it wasn't a belief of mine. I have heard preachers say that the story of the Canaanites has driven more people away from the Bible and God than any other passages in the Book. No way to prove such a claim but it's reasonable as it seems harsh to many but not to me.
"1 Sam 15 2-3 2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
It's not all that common where God gives out such a command although there are instances of it as compared to the more standard battles in the Bible. I don't view this as cruel or vengeful anymore than I do the Flood but necessity. The bloodlines and DNA were tainted like in the days of Noah by The Watchers, The Fallen Ones.. Bene Elohim and this had to be corrected which explains the need to destroy everything. If this isn't purged there is no pure blood line for Christ to come from in the first place.
Amalekite=Vampire like Demon..Nephilim, offspring hybrid's of The Fallen Ones and not human's that are being wiped out.
" Genesis 6:2 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 18, 2018 10:37:59 GMT -5
Genesis 6:9
"These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."
Noah..perfect in his generations, his bloodline, his DNA untainted.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Mar 18, 2018 12:09:18 GMT -5
The main thing I know is that there are many things I don’t know or understand, but I don’t have to know and understand everything.
I don’t know how my TV works... but I know it does.
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 19, 2018 12:30:38 GMT -5
The main thing I know is that there are many things I don’t know or understand, but I don’t have to know and understand everything. I don’t know how my TV works... but I know it does. " The main thing I know is that there are many things I don’t know or understand, but I don’t have to know and understand everything." Excellent. I would add too that by trying to understand the details as well as turning these ideas constantly over in the mind helps to keep one God conscious and close to HIM. You still have me thinking about this..... " "The biggest issue with the need to claim it’s literal nature comes from the resurrection of Christ. Christianity hinges on that being true, and I do believe it is true... be it physical or spiritual." If the resurrection could somehow be proven false or just a grand add on by the disciples are you saying it would all become meaningless for you and you are out...or just that particular interpretation?
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 19, 2018 12:56:48 GMT -5
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Mar 19, 2018 13:34:38 GMT -5
If the resurrection could somehow be proven false or just a grand add on by the disciples are you saying it would all become meaningless for you and you are out...or just that particular interpretation? There would never be any “out”, but if that is a complete add on then there would certainly be major changes in my beliefs. If we are talking a physical resurrection vs a spiritual resurrection than nothing would really change as we speak of spiritual realms anyway. Even if there was complete fabrication, there are universal truths learned from the Bible and Christian faith that would not go away. I am a better person for having my faith and beliefs, so why would I walk away from anything that makes me a better person. If that was all it was about, then it is still a great thing. If there is nothing to any of it at all, then laws and moralities are just pointless constructs and I don’t want an existence in that universe.
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 19, 2018 14:17:09 GMT -5
If the resurrection could somehow be proven false or just a grand add on by the disciples are you saying it would all become meaningless for you and you are out...or just that particular interpretation? There would never be any “out”, but if that is a complete add on then there would certainly be major changes in my beliefs. If we are talking a physical resurrection vs a spiritual resurrection than nothing would really change as we speak of spiritual realms anyway. Even if there was complete fabrication, there are universal truths learned from the Bible and Christian faith that would not go away. I am a better person for having my faith and beliefs, so why would I walk away from anything that makes me a better person. If that was all it was about, then it is still a great thing. If there is nothing to any of it at all, then laws and moralities are just pointless constructs and I don’t want an existence in that universe. I don't see what it would change which is probably something I'm failing to grasp or have always viewed in a different way. I'm not debating or arguing with you either just enjoying the conversation and thinking about these things. To me that would makes Jesus a prophet, an avatar or 'son of God' who is pointing towards the eternal like the prophets before and after him. The message would still be the same and point towards the same thing like Krishna in the Gita for example. I feel the same about Muhammad and the Quran...no idea if the man spoke to Gabriel or not but the message is sound either way...single pointedness, One God, nothing but God and that ultimately there can only be One that is beyond all human conception. So I guess in that sense I view it as all roads leading to the same place.
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 19, 2018 14:20:38 GMT -5
One of my favourite 'descriptions of God" from ..... THE MYSTICAL THEOLOGY OF DIONYSIUS THE AREOPAGITE www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/dionys1.htmWe therefore maintain that the universal and transcendent Cause of all things is neither without being nor without life, nor without reason or intelligence; nor is He a body, nor has He form or shape, quality, quantity or weight; nor has He any localized, visible or tangible existence; He is not sensible or perceptible; nor is He subject to any disorder or inordination nor influenced by any earthly passion; neither is He rendered impotent through the effects of material causes and events; He needs no light; He suffers no change, corruption, division, privation or flux; none of these things can either be identified with or attributed unto Him." "Again, ascending yet higher, we maintain that He is neither soul nor intellect; nor has He imagination, opinion, reason or understanding; nor can He be expressed or conceived, since He is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is He standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has He power nor is power, nor is light; neither does He live nor is He life; neither is He essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is He subject to intelligible contact; nor is He science nor truth, nor kingship, nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is He spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know Him as He is; nor does He know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to Him, nor name Him, nor know Him; neither is He darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to Him, for although we may affirm or deny the things below Him, we can neither affirm nor deny Him, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of His absolute nature is outside of every negation — free from every limitation and beyond them all."
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Post by jahgentle on Mar 19, 2018 17:27:55 GMT -5
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