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Post by Fumbduckery on Aug 26, 2018 18:47:10 GMT -5
Dunno if anybody caught it or not, but in the top of the 6th inning Joe really admonished fans for second guessing Snitker letting Sanchez hit for himself last night. Joe made quite a big deal out of it and told us not to question Snitker's decisions, because we don't have all the info he does. That may be true in some cases, but not in most. And the ones we question him on are ones that are obvious. So screw you Joe, you putz. Go somewhere else and try to tell people what they shouldn't do.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Aug 26, 2018 19:18:22 GMT -5
That's his standard response anytime we question the manager. Every time it's that he has some sort of secret intel that none of us have.... despite the fact that Snit himself said it was just a dice-roll and he was more interested in getting 2 more innings out of Sanchez which is implicitly saying that was more important that trying to get a run at a time when we were losing by 1 and scoringly challenged.
It's funny because when I criticize Snit, I try and be very specific and state exactly what I think was done wrong.. why it was wrong... and what else should have been done. Those specifics are never addressed when the defense shows up. It's just some vagueries about everyone not knowing what Snit knows. In Joe's world... Snit has never made a bad call.
Plus it's not like every mention of some mistake is a call to fire him when the game is over. All managers make mistakes.
I'm going to start using this methodology though to defend players. Anytime anyone wonders why a player swung at that down and away pitch, I'm going to say "well you just don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Maybe the player was prepped with the info that in that particular situation the pitcher always throws a middle-in fastball."
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Aug 26, 2018 19:22:16 GMT -5
Just FYI - No big deal I hope, but I moved the Bills conversation to the NFL tread in the other sports forum.
Just trying to encourage more NFL conversation and more viewing of the other parts of the forum.
Thanks
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Post by Fumbduckery on Aug 26, 2018 19:27:02 GMT -5
That's his standard response anytime we question the manager. Every time it's that he has some sort of secret intel that none of us have.... despite the fact that Snit himself said it was jsit a dice-roll and he was more interested in getting 2 more innings out of Sanchez which is implicitly saying that was more important that trying to get a run at a time when we were losing by 1 and scoringly challenged. It's funny because when I criticize Snit, I try and be very specific and state exactly what I think was done wrong.. why it was wrong... and what else should have been done. Those specifics are never addressed when the defense shows up. It's just some vagueries about everyone not knowing what Snit knows. In Joe's world... Snit has never made a bad call. Plus it's not like every mention of some mistake is a call to fire him when the game is over. All managers make mistakes. I'm going to start using this methodology though to defend players. Anytime anyone wonders why a player swung at that down and away pitch, I'm going to say "well you just don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Maybe the player was prepped with the info that in that particular situation the pitcher always throws a middle in fastball."
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Post by keystone61 on Aug 26, 2018 19:42:21 GMT -5
NM
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Post by keystone61 on Aug 26, 2018 19:44:40 GMT -5
Yes it certainly was. Barring something totally unforeseen, this kid is gonna be one helluva baseball player. We're talking Trout level good here. Yes, I said it......THAT good. I look forward to watching this kid develop. An added bonus is that my wife hails from Caracas. Even she's a little curious. She was PISSED when Urine took him out. LOL. That sorta tells you all you need to know.
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Post by wncbravesfan on Aug 26, 2018 20:16:14 GMT -5
Just FYI - No big deal I hope, but I moved the Bills conversation to the NFL tread in the other sports forum. Just trying to encourage more NFL conversation and more viewing of the other parts of the forum. Thanks Good call
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Post by keystone61 on Aug 27, 2018 8:10:59 GMT -5
Dunno if anybody caught it or not, but in the top of the 6th inning Joe really admonished fans for second guessing Snitker letting Sanchez hit for himself last night. Joe made quite a big deal out of it and told us not to question Snitker's decisions, because we don't have all the info he does. That may be true in some cases, but not in most. And the ones we question him on are ones that are obvious. So screw you Joe, you putz. Go somewhere else and try to tell people what they shouldn't do. I don't think it was a big deal, and he does have a point. Snit has been around baseball a LONG time, and the Braves are 3 games up on August 27th when everyone here was hoping for a .500 season. I realize manager bashing is popular everywhere (NOBODY seems to like their manager), but when it's all said and done, he's obviously done a pretty damn good job.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Aug 27, 2018 10:20:26 GMT -5
Dunno if anybody caught it or not, but in the top of the 6th inning Joe really admonished fans for second guessing Snitker letting Sanchez hit for himself last night. Joe made quite a big deal out of it and told us not to question Snitker's decisions, because we don't have all the info he does. That may be true in some cases, but not in most. And the ones we question him on are ones that are obvious. So screw you Joe, you putz. Go somewhere else and try to tell people what they shouldn't do. I don't think it was a big deal, and he does have a point. Snit has been around baseball a LONG time, and the Braves are 3 games up on August 27th when everyone here was hoping for a .500 season. I realize manager bashing is popular everywhere (NOBODY seems to like their manager), but when it's all said and done, he's obviously done a pretty damn good job. I think he’s done a spectacular job with the players on a personal level and a terrible job daily calling the shots. Just my opinion. It’s just like having Bobby Cox as our manager. Most people want to give Bobby a lot of credit—again he was great with the players on a personal level, but not calling the shots. He help us win a lot and he also helped us lose more than we should have in the playoffs. My opinion.
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Post by keystone61 on Aug 27, 2018 12:04:30 GMT -5
I don't think it was a big deal, and he does have a point. Snit has been around baseball a LONG time, and the Braves are 3 games up on August 27th when everyone here was hoping for a .500 season. I realize manager bashing is popular everywhere (NOBODY seems to like their manager), but when it's all said and done, he's obviously done a pretty damn good job. I think he’s done a spectacular job with the players on a personal level and a terrible job daily calling the shots. Just my opinion. It’s just like having Bobby Cox as our manager. Most people want to give Bobby a lot of credit—again he was great with the players on a personal level, but not calling the shots. He help us win a lot and he also helped us lose more than we should have in the playoffs. My opinion. Aren't dealing with players on a personal level and calling the daily shots closely related? For example, if you bench Dansby Swanson (in all likelihood our best defensive SS) because he is struggling at the plate, does that mean you bench every guy that hits the skids? How exactly does taking such an action help Dansby become the player that everyone thinks he can be? Freddie Freeman hasn't hit a homer in a month. Do you bench him? If Sad Sam struggles from the mound, do you just tell him to pack his crap up and go home? My point is that actions have consequences that go well beyond the box score, and that if you have knee jerk reactions to player struggles, you will A) lose their trust, and B) run out of players. Has Snitker made some questionable moves? Of course he has......and so has every other manager in the game. Has he made more than his share? I don't know, because I don't follow any other team nearly as closely as I follow the Braves. I'm a North Carolina basketball fan. Fans cuss and fuss constantly about his moves, especially his disdain for calling timeouts. He has won 3 National Championships in 15 years. He's a perfect example of why coaches shouldn't pay attention to what fans have to say.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Aug 27, 2018 12:59:37 GMT -5
I think he’s done a spectacular job with the players on a personal level and a terrible job daily calling the shots. Just my opinion. It’s just like having Bobby Cox as our manager. Most people want to give Bobby a lot of credit—again he was great with the players on a personal level, but not calling the shots. He help us win a lot and he also helped us lose more than we should have in the playoffs. My opinion. Aren't dealing with players on a personal level and calling the daily shots closely related? For example, if you bench Dansby Swanson (in all likelihood our best defensive SS) because he is struggling at the plate, does that mean you bench every guy that hits the skids? How exactly does taking such an action help Dansby become the player that everyone thinks he can be? Freddie Freeman hasn't hit a homer in a month. Do you bench him? If Sad Sam struggles from the mound, do you just tell him to pack his crap up and go home? My point is that actions have consequences that go well beyond the box score, and that if you have knee jerk reactions to player struggles, you will A) lose their trust, and B) run out of players. Has Snitker made some questionable moves? Of course he has......and so has every other manager in the game. Has he made more than his share? I don't know, because I don't follow any other team nearly as closely as I follow the Braves. I'm a North Carolina basketball fan. Fans cuss and fuss constantly about his moves, especially his disdain for calling timeouts. He has won 3 National Championships in 15 years. He's a perfect example of why coaches shouldn't pay attention to what fans have to say. My basic philosophy difference between the Bobby Cox and Snitker method is that I don't believe in coddling people and handing things to them. I was raised tough, and my high school baseball coach was a Marine who ran our baseball team like a Marine camp. I raised my kids the same way, and I've had great success in life and so have my kids, and I credit it to being hard on myself and my kids. And I credit my baseball coach for being hard on us. It taught me valuable lessons. Cox and Snitker are great cheerleaders, if you believe in that being the best way to have success. I do believe in giving praise and love, there has to be a mixture, but the underlying theme to me has to be toughness. And I think it can be argued that we would have won more World Series if the team attitude hadn't been so laid back all those years. It worked to some degree and worked for some players really well, it's just not the method I believe in.
I do not advocate knee jerk reactions at all. I believe in pushing people and being hard on them and still giving them a chance to learn and progress. I'm not talking about benching a guy because he has three bad games in a row, or telling a player he's crap or anything like that at all. But I feel 100% convinced that Snitker clearly stuck with Dansby at SS every day and Ender hitting leadoff way too long. Dansby was in a three month slump. Ender's was two months. That's ridiculous. Bobby and Snitker both believe in telling a guy at the start of the season this is your role, this is your job, and then the guy knows he has that job no matter what. And it has burned us before. And it hurt us this year when Dansby was in such a long slump and it hurt us when Ender was too and was still batting at the top of the order. I don't see how those things can be argued otherwise. Snitker does a terrible job deciding when to leave pitchers in and when to take them out, and deciding who he's going to bring in. That's just my opinion. But sticking with slumping players too long, to me is not just opinion. And I think it can definitely be argued that harm was done to Dansby's psyche during his slump, and that it would have benefited him more to step back and sit a couple times per week. I believe it helps development for a guy to not feel 100% comfortable with his role. I like the idea of people earning everything and then keeping up performance levels, or you adjust. Players should be flexible with where they bat in the order, and able to use it for motivation when they're moved down in the order or stuck on the bench.
I would also argue that, as is the case with NC basketball, the players are 95% responsible for what actually happens. And in all coaching cases, it's totally up to luck a lot of times as to what happens--you can make all the wrong moves and get lucky, or you can make the right ones and get unlucky, based on what happens with the players. So I tend to not give so much credit to coaches when teams win and not say the coach is the reason teams are losing. But a coach can at least put the odds in his favor with the moves he makes, and I just disagree with Snitker's choices a lot. I realize he's managing a big league team and I'm just a mook on the internet, but I played from the time I was 5 years old through college and have been a huge fan for almost 60 years, so I know a lot about the game. I think there's a lot of people who post here who are in the same boat. And I think it's possible that a lot of us would be good managers.
The last thing I'd say is that I do give credit to Snitker for the way he is with the players on a personal level, and I do think it matters and I do think it counts for something. I think it could be argued that the good he does in that regard may outweigh the bad he does with his managerial decisions. It's an unknown. It's just not the approach I personally believe in, that's all. And it manifests in the moves he makes and doesn't make.
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Post by keystone61 on Aug 27, 2018 13:38:19 GMT -5
Aren't dealing with players on a personal level and calling the daily shots closely related? For example, if you bench Dansby Swanson (in all likelihood our best defensive SS) because he is struggling at the plate, does that mean you bench every guy that hits the skids? How exactly does taking such an action help Dansby become the player that everyone thinks he can be? Freddie Freeman hasn't hit a homer in a month. Do you bench him? If Sad Sam struggles from the mound, do you just tell him to pack his crap up and go home? My point is that actions have consequences that go well beyond the box score, and that if you have knee jerk reactions to player struggles, you will A) lose their trust, and B) run out of players. Has Snitker made some questionable moves? Of course he has......and so has every other manager in the game. Has he made more than his share? I don't know, because I don't follow any other team nearly as closely as I follow the Braves. I'm a North Carolina basketball fan. Fans cuss and fuss constantly about his moves, especially his disdain for calling timeouts. He has won 3 National Championships in 15 years. He's a perfect example of why coaches shouldn't pay attention to what fans have to say. My basic philosophy difference between the Bobby Cox and Snitker method is that I don't believe in coddling people and handing things to them. I was raised tough, and my high school baseball coach was a Marine who ran our baseball team like a Marine camp. I raised my kids the same way, and I've had great success in life and so have my kids, and I credit it to being hard on myself and my kids. And I credit my baseball coach for being hard on us. It taught me valuable lessons. Cox and Snitker are great cheerleaders, if you believe in that being the best way to have success. I do believe in giving praise and love, there has to be a mixture, but the underlying theme to me has to be toughness. And I think it can be argued that we would have won more World Series if the team attitude hadn't been so laid back all those years. It worked to some degree and worked for some players really well, it's just not the method I believe in.
I do not advocate knee jerk reactions at all. I believe in pushing people and being hard on them and still giving them a chance to learn and progress. I'm not talking about benching a guy because he has three bad games in a row, or telling a player he's crap or anything like that at all. But I feel 100% convinced that Snitker clearly stuck with Dansby at SS every day and Ender hitting leadoff way too long. Dansby was in a three month slump. Ender's was two months. That's ridiculous. Bobby and Snitker both believe in telling a guy at the start of the season this is your role, this is your job, and then the guy knows he has that job no matter what. And it has burned us before. And it hurt us this year when Dansby was in such a long slump and it hurt us when Ender was too and was still batting at the top of the order. I don't see how those things can be argued otherwise. Snitker does a terrible job deciding when to leave pitchers in and when to take them out, and deciding who he's going to bring in. That's just my opinion. But sticking with slumping players too long, to me is not just opinion. And I think it can definitely be argued that harm was done to Dansby's psyche during his slump, and that it would have benefited him more to step back and sit a couple times per week. I believe it helps development for a guy to not feel 100% comfortable with his role. I like the idea of people earning everything and then keeping up performance levels, or you adjust. Players should be flexible with where they bat in the order, and able to use it for motivation when they're moved down in the order or stuck on the bench.
I would also argue that, as is the case with NC basketball, the players are 95% responsible for what actually happens. And in all coaching cases, it's totally up to luck a lot of times as to what happens--you can make all the wrong moves and get lucky, or you can make the right ones and get unlucky, based on what happens with the players. So I tend to not give so much credit to coaches when teams win and not say the coach is the reason teams are losing. But a coach can at least put the odds in his favor with the moves he makes, and I just disagree with Snitker's choices a lot. I realize he's managing a big league team and I'm just a mook on the internet, but I played from the time I was 5 years old through college and have been a huge fan for almost 60 years, so I know a lot about the game. I think there's a lot of people who post here who are in the same boat. And I think it's possible that a lot of us would be good managers.
The last thing I'd say is that I do give credit to Snitker for the way he is with the players on a personal level, and I do think it matters and I do think it counts for something. I think it could be argued that the good he does in that regard may outweigh the bad he does with his managerial decisions. It's an unknown. It's just not the approach I personally believe in, that's all. And it manifests in the moves he makes and doesn't make.
It's interesting getting your take on it. I come largely from the old school myself and agree with many of your points. Hell, I agree with almost all of them. The fact is, times change, and drill sargents may not do as well as they used to do. That's open to debate, I think. It's important, however, to remember that our oldest regular, Nick Markakis, is only 34 years old. In other words, he was 12 when we won the World Series in '95. I was 34. Acuna was born over 2 years AFTER we won it. What I'm trying to say is that it's a completely different generation, and there are differences in how to handle them and how kids were handled 30 years ago. I do think a little drill sargent now and then is good for them, though. I don't disagree with you about sticking with Ender and Dansby too long at times, either, but what do you do? We don't have a lot of SS options on the major or minor league levels, and Ender is a tremendous outfielder who has always hit well for us. I think Ender has earned the right to a longer leash, Dansby not so much. In recent games, both Ender and Dansby have come up big, so maybe, just maybe, Snit's approach works better than we realize. I'm not suggesting that Snitker is a great manager, and I'm not defending him, but so far, you couldn't have asked for much more from anyone. It does give you cause for concern if we do make the playoffs and a crucial situation comes up where the manager has to make a decision. Hopefully, if that comes up, Snit will come through.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Aug 27, 2018 14:16:21 GMT -5
I doubt pinch hitting for Anabel Sanchez when we are down a run and struggling to score is going to have long term.... or any term negative repercusssions on the team. Most of the single in-game moves I have specifically mentioned have no repercussions beyond winning or losing that game. Brach isn't going to have a tantrum over being pulled to get a lefty lefty matchup. Swanson hasn't asked to be traded because Snit has sat him a few games here and there, and I don't think Freeman would get in a snit if he was sat for one game.
In my opinion the long term repercussion stuff has been handled very well by Snitker. He doesn't throw his players under a bus like Frego did... he has shown tremendous patience with players giving them all the chances in the world to right their own ship.
Those are not the things in question for me and I seriously doubt what I have mentioned has any long term team management/locker-room implications.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Aug 27, 2018 15:17:32 GMT -5
It's interesting getting your take on it. I come largely from the old school myself and agree with many of your points. Hell, I agree with almost all of them. The fact is, times change, and drill sargents may not do as well as they used to do. That's open to debate, I think. It's important, however, to remember that our oldest regular, Nick Markakis, is only 34 years old. In other words, he was 12 when we won the World Series in '95. I was 34. Acuna was born over 2 years AFTER we won it. What I'm trying to say is that it's a completely different generation, and there are differences in how to handle them and how kids were handled 30 years ago. I do think a little drill sargent now and then is good for them, though. I don't disagree with you about sticking with Ender and Dansby too long at times, either, but what do you do? We don't have a lot of SS options on the major or minor league levels, and Ender is a tremendous outfielder who has always hit well for us. I think Ender has earned the right to a longer leash, Dansby not so much. In recent games, both Ender and Dansby have come up big, so maybe, just maybe, Snit's approach works better than we realize. I'm not suggesting that Snitker is a great manager, and I'm not defending him, but so far, you couldn't have asked for much more from anyone. It does give you cause for concern if we do make the playoffs and a crucial situation comes up where the manager has to make a decision. Hopefully, if that comes up, Snit will come through. While I was out running some errands I was thinking about this, and did not mean to sound like "Full Metal Jacket" was the preferred approach. What my high school coach did was drill fundamentals into us like a Marine camp. If you did things fundamentally wrong even in practice you paid for it big time with laps and push ups and other sorts of physical punishments, and some mild verbal abuse. In a purely motivational way, of course. He didn't go crazy on us when you made an error or struck out, we did not play under extreme pressure, he was actually really good about that. If you made an error or had a bad game you knew you'd pay some for it in practice the next day, but you weren't shown up during the game. I think it was a great philosophy. It makes the game frustrating for me now, because all across the major leagues players do not do anything fundamentally well. Crap like Dansby insisting on fielding grounders back handed when he has plenty of time to get in front of the ball and field it properly. He's been doing it for two years now, a lot. It finally helped lose us a game a few weeks ago. And I just don't get that. Why would anyone get away from doing the little things that make you better? I realize it's a totally different generation now, and things have changed, but it makes no sense to me to not be the best you can be. And Dansby would be better if he wasn't so lazy and would get in front of the ball properly. And honestly, you can watch, other players on other teams do the same thing. Which is fine for them, but I'm still not going to be happy that our guy won't do it right.
As far as what I would have done, I've said it a whole lot of times--Camargo has proven to be a very capable SS, I feel like as good as Dansby, and has a better arm from the hole. We just haven't seen him play enough at SS to know for sure. But I would have played him there while Dansby was slumping and played Charlie at 3B. Even if it was only 1-2 times a week. I just don't get doing the same thing over and over when it's not working, and expect different results. It's true Dansby and Ender have looked a lot better lately, but look how long it took. And I feel a whole lot more comfortable that Ender can keep up the good hitting than Dansby. With Ender, I would have moved him down in the lineup way sooner than what happened, and let Acuna play some CF against RHP and play Charlie in LF. It would have helped Charlie play more while he was hot, and Ender's numbers against LHP this year are dreadful.
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Post by keystone61 on Aug 27, 2018 15:19:02 GMT -5
I doubt pinch hitting for Anabel Sanchez when we are down a run and struggling to score is going to have long term.... or any term negative repercusssions on the team. Most of the single in-game moves I have specifically mentioned have no repercussions beyond winning or losing that game. Brach isn't going to have a tantrum over being pulled to get a lefty lefty matchup. Swanson hasn't asked to be traded because Snit has sat him a few games here and there, and I don't think Freeman would get in a snit if he was sat for one game. In my opinion the long term repercussion stuff has been handled very well by Snitker. He doesn't throw his players under a bus like Frego did... he has shown tremendous patience with players giving them all the chances in the world to right their own ship. Those are not the things in question for me and I seriously doubt what I have mentioned has any long term team management/locker-room implications. Yeah, he makes some odd moves at times, but I suppose all managers do. The thing with Snit is he's an older dude, so it's easy to think he's a "stuck in his ways" kinda guy. He seems like a great dude to play for, and that's worth a lot. Would I be nervous with him managing the 7th game of the World Series? Yes, but the fact is, I'd be nervous no matter who the manager was. You make a decision, it either works or it doesn't. That's really all there is to it. Odds are, whoever he pinch hits for Sanchez in that situation probably makes an out, but your odds are increased from roughly 10% to 25%, based on a pitcher batting .100 and the average hitter batting .250 (and yes, I pulled those numbers out of thin air). In my opinion, he should have pinch hit for him in that situation based solely on those numbers, especially given the fact that we've been struggling to score runs. As for sitting Dansby......well, MAYBE he is rounding the corner.......MAYBE. If he is, then Snit's a freakin' genius for being so patient with him. Dansby is gonna have to show me for the remainder of the season, though. He's been bad too much for any less proof to suffice.
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