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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Sept 10, 2018 20:29:55 GMT -5
For 3rd base. Adios, Riley. I hope you have a nice career somewhere else.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Sept 10, 2018 20:35:41 GMT -5
I've been on the Camargo wagon for some time, but I really like the idea of moving him to SS and dealing Dansby. I'd rather have Riley on our team than Dansby. Even if Dansby really is considerably better defensively at SS than Camargo, which I'm not willing to concede yet because Johan hasn't played SS enough for us to know.....but even if Dansby is much better defensively, I still think we're better off with Riley and Camargo in the lineup than Camargo and Dansby.
I really hate to even think this, but if I knew Riley was going to blossom, I'd even consider moving Camargo to 2nd base and dealing Ozzie. I would have punched somebody if they would have said that to me at the All Star break, but man, he's given me serious reason to be a bit concerned about him down the road.
Having said that, I think we can bring Riley along next year and hang onto all of these guys and see how it plays out in 2019, and by the All Star break or maybe even the offseason decide who is going to be the odd man out. But I want a fair shot for all of them, no favoritism, nobody being handed any jobs for certain, whoever performs plays and whoever doesn't perform sits and/or gets traded.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Sept 10, 2018 20:41:06 GMT -5
I've been on the Camargo wagon for some time, but I really like the idea of moving him to SS and dealing Dansby. I'd rather have Riley on our team than Dansby. Even if Dansby really is considerably better defensively at SS than Camargo, which I'm not willing to concede yet because Johan hasn't played SS enough for us to know.....but even if Dansby is much better defensively, I still think we're better off with Riley and Camargo in the lineup than Camargo and Dansby.
I really hate to even think this, but if I knew Riley was going to blossom, I'd even consider moving Camargo to 2nd base and dealing Ozzie. I would have punched somebody if they would have said that to me at the All Star break, but man, he's given me serious reason to be a bit concerned about him down the road. I think the Braves would get more value in trading Riley than Swanson. With Swanson you’re selling low and with Riley you’re selling high. With the Braves being only a few smart moves away from WS contention, I wouldn’t mind them trading Riley as part of a package if it meant getting an Ace, Realmuto, or an OFer. Trading Swanson for any of those would require a bigger package of prospects. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Sept 10, 2018 20:49:03 GMT -5
I've been on the Camargo wagon for some time, but I really like the idea of moving him to SS and dealing Dansby. I'd rather have Riley on our team than Dansby. Even if Dansby really is considerably better defensively at SS than Camargo, which I'm not willing to concede yet because Johan hasn't played SS enough for us to know.....but even if Dansby is much better defensively, I still think we're better off with Riley and Camargo in the lineup than Camargo and Dansby.
I really hate to even think this, but if I knew Riley was going to blossom, I'd even consider moving Camargo to 2nd base and dealing Ozzie. I would have punched somebody if they would have said that to me at the All Star break, but man, he's given me serious reason to be a bit concerned about him down the road. I think the Braves would get more value in trading Riley than Swanson. With Swanson you’re selling low and with Riley you’re selling high. With the Braves being only a few smart moves away from WS contention, I wouldn’t mind them trading Riley as part of a package if it meant getting an Ace, Realmuto, or an OFer. Trading Swanson for any of those would require a bigger package of prospects. I'm not so sure we'd be selling real low on Dansby, he's shown enough this year, especially with the glove, that he has some good value still. I just think he might be the 4th best player out of the group of him, Riley, Camargo and Ozzie. The only way I'd consider trading Ozzie instead of Dansby is if the return was quite a bit more, because we could surely get a nice haul for him. He just scares me a little now with his free swinging, it's out of hand. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Sept 10, 2018 20:59:38 GMT -5
I also wouldn't be opposed to seeing if Camargo can play RF. He definitely has the arm for it. He's not a fast runner, but he's faster than Nick and has 3 times the arm. If Johan could play a respectable RF then we don't even have an odd man out at that point. Culberson is the perfect utility guy as well. Then everybody is set. I was hoping Camargo would play some OF in winter ball last offseason because we could already see we were going to have one too many infielders. I'd like to see him try it this winter to see.
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Post by TheCoronaManCometh on Sept 10, 2018 22:52:25 GMT -5
I also wouldn't be opposed to seeing if Camargo can play RF. He definitely has the arm for it. He's not a fast runner, but he's faster than Nick and has 3 times the arm. If Johan could play a respectable RF then we don't even have an odd man out at that point. Culberson is the perfect utility guy as well. Then everybody is set. I was hoping Camargo would play some OF in winter ball last offseason because we could already see we were going to have one too many infielders. I'd like to see him try it this winter to see. He can’t play RF. That’s where harper’s gonna play.  |
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Sept 10, 2018 23:08:08 GMT -5
I merged an older Camargo tread with this
one, retaining the title here since this was the
most recent.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Sept 11, 2018 1:20:26 GMT -5
I also wouldn't be opposed to seeing if Camargo can play RF. He definitely has the arm for it. He's not a fast runner, but he's faster than Nick and has 3 times the arm. If Johan could play a respectable RF then we don't even have an odd man out at that point. Culberson is the perfect utility guy as well. Then everybody is set. I was hoping Camargo would play some OF in winter ball last offseason because we could already see we were going to have one too many infielders. I'd like to see him try it this winter to see. He can’t play RF. That’s where harper’s gonna play. Harper may be playing RF, but it won't be in Atlanta.  |
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Post by bravter on Sept 11, 2018 5:43:41 GMT -5
I merged an older Camargo tread with this one, retaining the title here since this was the most recent. Merging these two threads kinda killed the importance and impact of what the tread was created for. It now looks like Nightman's thoughts are an afterthought of someone else's thoughts when he was the original OP. I just felt Nightman's thoughts were a bit more provocative from what the other tread was created for, making it not the best merger. It was nice to see though that Camargo was able to fight his way back in to the starting line up and now to maybe something more long term. This kinda hurt seeing it come from you, but I do understand where you're coming from. We're talking about optimal value for a trade. I'm gonna reserve most of my judgement until after the season. But I'm gonna ramble my thoughts for now I'm not sold on Camargo's walk rate with that one inflated month. He's a switch hitter that has done it from both sides of the plate. He won't be as good as Dansby at shortstop but will be above average. Not much speed on the bases. I do think he's here to stay for next season in some capacity. Dansby saving grace has been his great defense and hitting with RISP. He's not hit lefties well. He's not taken a ton of walks despite being in the 8th spot much of the year. His K% is too high. He's a good baserunner. There's a lot to be improved upon and there's still plenty of potential but only have been shown in small spurts. Ozzie Albies had a great first half and is having a horrible 2nd half. His homeruns will probably go down. He's shown horrible patience at the plate. Kinda a far cry from 2017 where he had 21 walks, compared to now he has only 28 walks in over double the plate appearances. This probably could be improved upon if he cut back on the power swings. I don't want to see Albies turning into the next Francoeur, that's for sure. Other pluses are defense and baserunning. Ender Inciarte has been an elite defender this season with a below average offensive season. His contract is guaranteed through 2021 (age 30 by then) with a team option for 2022. He's owed 5.7M, 7.7M 8.7M for the next three seasons. He's a left handed bat that has the potential to bounce back, but he's always had a meh walk rate. Acuna could take over centerfield but how would his defense fair and body fair playing a premiere position. Austin Riley could be a cost effective right handed power bat that we need. We use our strength of money in FA to get a great left handed bat to either play right or left field. Austin Riley could be a good middle or heart of the order bat. I think he'll have a good walk rate, possibly show good at bats despite the high k rate. He'll definitely need to get that down though. Not sure about his defense but I could see that being a negative dWAR. Baserunning will be below average too, right? So right now I see a much need improvement in offense over a slight decline in defense. What will trading him do for this team that we can't get in FA market? Right now I feel like trading him would be a huge wasted opportunity. As for the rebuild I can see this guy being at least our Ryan Klesko of the past. It's these type of feelings as Braves fans that really hurt thinking about losing someone. I just love seeing the homegrown's bust out and think with the comparisons of the past. As for our GM he has some real tough choices ahead. If I thought of trading anyone, as for now, it's either Inciarte or Swanson and I'm mostly leaning Inciarte because of the money and who can replace him. Crazy that both of them are close to a +2.0 dWAR and below average offenses. Dansby's age, potential, and position seem a little more important. (edit) Also I forgot to add we have Cristian Pache who could take over center in a year or two if Acuna doesn't bold well in CF. Camargo's 125 OPS+, great switch hitting, consistency in hitting and just huge strides of improvement in all assets are all star potential. You definitely fill him in somewhere on the team next season and it's just nice to know he's an unknown and now a great strength. Still it's just one great season and another above average season and I think it's a too soon decision to trade Riley. |
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Sept 11, 2018 7:01:32 GMT -5
Well everybody has there own ideas about what should be merged and what shouldn't.
I guess I should abandon my plans to merge his "I'm Dying" tread about the bullpen with the
bullpen tread that is on the same page.
Message received.
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Post by Hart's Middle Finger on Sept 11, 2018 7:05:18 GMT -5
Demergified
It's like magic!
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Post by keystone61 on Sept 11, 2018 7:56:36 GMT -5
I LOVE Camargo, but IMHO, he will never be as good of a SS as Dansby. I haven't seen the lateral quickness out of Camargo that is needed to excel defensively at SS. I'd like to see Dansby hit more just as much as anybody else would, but I think you might be undervaluing the importance of defense here, and his offense seems to be coming slowly but surely. I like the idea of Camargo in RF. His arm definitely plays there, and I see no reason why he can't be converted to the OF.
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Post by Fumbduckery on Sept 11, 2018 14:17:27 GMT -5
I LOVE Camargo, but IMHO, he will never be as good of a SS as Dansby. I haven't seen the lateral quickness out of Camargo that is needed to excel defensively at SS. I'd like to see Dansby hit more just as much as anybody else would, but I think you might be undervaluing the importance of defense here, and his offense seems to be coming slowly but surely. I like the idea of Camargo in RF. His arm definitely plays there, and I see no reason why he can't be converted to the OF. I agree that Dansby has better lateral quickness, but I don't think it's drastic. And I think Camargo makes up for it by having a better arm. Dansby has a really good arm, but Camargo has a great arm. But when we compare their offensive performances, they aren't even in the same hemisphere. It's not just the fact that Camargo has a career wRC+ of 114 compared to Dansby's 77, Camargo has also been incredibly consistent. He never has more than 2-3 bad offensive games in a row. Dansby has had several extremely long stretches where he was dreadful at the plate. And I think you win more games with a guy who can be consistent. |
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Post by keystone61 on Sept 11, 2018 14:52:10 GMT -5
I LOVE Camargo, but IMHO, he will never be as good of a SS as Dansby. I haven't seen the lateral quickness out of Camargo that is needed to excel defensively at SS. I'd like to see Dansby hit more just as much as anybody else would, but I think you might be undervaluing the importance of defense here, and his offense seems to be coming slowly but surely. I like the idea of Camargo in RF. His arm definitely plays there, and I see no reason why he can't be converted to the OF. I agree that Dansby has better lateral quickness, but I don't think it's drastic. And I think Camargo makes up for it by having a better arm. Dansby has a really good arm, but Camargo has a great arm. But when we compare their offensive performances, they aren't even in the same hemisphere. It's not just the fact that Camargo has a career wRC+ of 114 compared to Dansby's 77, Camargo has also been incredibly consistent. He never has more than 2-3 bad offensive games in a row. Dansby has had several extremely long stretches where he was dreadful at the plate. And I think you win more games with a guy who can be consistent. I agree. Camargo's consistency and the growth in his power is quite impressive. I'm certainly not arguing that there is any comparison between the two offensively to this point, and maybe there never will be, but you wanna be as strong as possible defensively at SS. I guess what it boils down to is that I'm not ready to give up on Dansby's bat yet. His defense and intangibles are above average already. I'm hopeful that his bat will soon follow. Besides, I think there is a strong possibility that Nick is allowed to walk, which leaves RF open. Let's say Riley pans out from day 1 next year. If moving Camargo to RF meant being able to sign oh, let's say Patrick Corbin and Craig Kimbrel, plus swing a trade for Realmuto while keeping Dansby at SS, do you think those would good moves? I realize that Riley panning out, especially from jump street next year is a big assumption, but I like that scenario, personally. |
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Post by Fumbduckery on Sept 11, 2018 15:49:19 GMT -5
I like all those ideas. I haven’t given up on Dansby. I’m just saying if the Braves don’t consider moving Camargo to the OF there’s going to be an odd man out. Assuming Riley pans out, and I feel pretty confident he will. I believe in good defense more than 98% of all baseball fans out there, I just think the difference between Camargo and Dansby defensively is negligible. Then when you look at their offense it’s two different worlds.
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